Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Anonymous

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-08-2002, 08:12 PM   #51
Miguel Cuevas
Dojo: Vineland Aikikia
Location: New Jersey, U.S.A.
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6
Offline
Not wanting to stray off the topic much, but I just recently witnessed my first test ever, a 5th kyu test at that. There were four canidates and they did great by my estimation, and they all passed. Then again I am a rookie in this art . Some of the canidates were really excited to recieve their new belts, while others took it nonchalantly. It was a perfect example of what both Mr. Knoops and CA were both refering to, in which case I must say I agree with both. People do things for a near infinite number of reasons and I believe that trying to figure out a person's motivations for wearing a white belt all the time or for parading around in their higher ranking belts is pretty much an excercise in futility. Let people do their own thing without being too judgemental, that's what I say .


Personally, I love the sense of accomplishment that having a colored belt conveys, and when I finally test and if I pass and I get one, I'm going to do a tap dance kata of joy all up and down my dojo! That doesn't mean I think I'm better than anyone, or that I'm letting my over inflated ego have its way with me, I'm just exceptionally proud of my accomplishment; nothing more, nothing less. I practice with all the dedication I can muster to reflect my pride in being an aikidoka, regardless of my rank. That pride would be diminished considerably if I believed I didn't deserve my rank.

On a side note, one of the students who took the 5th kyu test was blind, and to be honest about it, I kind of thought he was going to pass regardless of how he did. Fail the blind guy for poor technique? Not going to happen, I said. After he did his first technique (better than I have ever done it, I might add), I knew instantly that he deserved it. His uke for the test, by the way, was one of our dojo's sensei's, who is also blind. I wonder what their opinions are on the whole colored belt thing? Just a thought.

"The true way of the Martial Arts is to train so that these skills are useful at any time, and to teach these skills so that they will be useful in all things."
-Shinmen Musashi
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2002, 09:14 PM   #52
Niadh
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido, MA
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 69
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by Edward
It's always quite amusing to read from people who don't care about rank, and who use their belts just to hold their gi together.

In some cases, I noticed that lack of self-confidence in one's abilities and fear of tests and failure in them are the real reasons behind this disinterested attitude. These people must be burning inside from envy of their friends taking up the tests.

I think that in a system where every one wears colored belts, wearing a white belt is a sign of arrogance. The most hypocrit of all are some yudansha who wear white belts under their hakama. It's true that O sensei did wear a white belt, and he always said he was still a beginner in aikido. But trying to compare themselves to Osensei is really fake humbleness.
Well, I here your words, but their meaning is deaf to me. I do not lack self confidence. I have been training for many years now, enjoy Aikido, and feel that I can learn something form anyone, NO MATTER WHAT RANK. so therefore rank does not matter to me. I have studied under Senseis of many different skills, often changing in the time of my study. Much as my skill has changed over the years. I test, I enjoy testing, and I celebrate the advancement of friends with them. I teach, I enjoy teaching, and I learn whenever I can from whomever I can. You state that Mr Knopp (?) makes a judgement call from a few posts, but is that not what you did after my post?

I could agree that to wear a white belt to show that you are above colored belts in a system that usescolored belts could be rude. I also KNOW that all systems do not, and I will do as asked by the person I am training under at a given time. Whether that traingin be long term or a seminar. But I will train with the same skill no matter the color of my belt or the rank I hold, or the style(s) in which I hold it. I expect that would be true of everyone here. So therefore I stand by my statements earlier.

Since the question asked was what do you think of "undesereved" promotions, I felt I should answer with my belief. If you are not theione granting the promotion, your are not the one to determine what is and is not deserved. Period.
To do otherwise would be a sign of extreme arrogance.
Niadh

Last edited by Niadh : 06-08-2002 at 09:18 PM.

Non Satis Scire
Niadh Feathers
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2002, 10:41 PM   #53
guest1234
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 915
Offline
Miguel,

I wish I could video that 'kata of joy dance'... I bet it will be something to behold ...

The blind student's test wound really interesting, especially with a blind uke... that must have really been something to watch, I wish I had been there... out of curiosity, were all the attacks grabs, or were there strikes? Did uke start with a sound to help nage orient himself, or how did they establish orientation for uke to attack?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2002, 12:08 AM   #54
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,075
Japan
Offline
Now boys. This is one of those topics where it is too easy to subscribe motives to those that feel differently.

The Shodokan system is fairly highly structured so if you don't test, there is a portion of every class where you practice the same stuff year in year out. Yuck. I want my next promotion exam not because I get to write whatever rank on my forehead but I want to start working on the next group of techniques. Ah well, I suppose patience is a virtue.

I've said before that I think kyu grades are an exellent measure of progress in the beginning of our journey and do think testing when the time is right is important. Rank hunting on the other hand is evil .

Still when someone proclaims they are not interested in testing or that rank has no meaning I must admit I am pretty quick to ask myself what they really mean. If they start talking about ego I immediately begin to smell the "holier than thou" attitude. Like Chris I know several seriously advanced students of our little thing that have reverted to white belts. Reminding oneself of "beginners mind" is the reason often given and somehow for 7th, 8th Dans to do so sounds right - for Shodan (beginning level) to do so sounds pretentious.

Let's just say that test when your sensei tells you to, where what the dojo requires, and don't worry about those around you.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2002, 05:22 AM   #55
erikmenzel
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
erikmenzel's Avatar
Dojo: Aikidojo Leiderdorp
Location: Leiden
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 530
Netherlands
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
This is one of those topics where it is too easy to subscribe motives to those that feel differently.
You are absolutly right. Mea culpa.
Quote:
The Shodokan system is fairly highly structured so if you don't test, there is a portion of every class where you practice the same stuff year in year out. Yuck. I want my next promotion exam not because I get to write whatever rank on my forehead but I want to start working on the next group of techniques. Ah well, I suppose patience is a virtue.
At our school we just train what we train, only thing taken into account is the level of skill of the people present.

Quote:
I've said before that I think kyu grades are an exellent measure of progress in the beginning of our journey and do think testing when the time is right is important. Rank hunting on the other hand is evil .
Testing is no problem, but why should there be rank attached?? What is wrong with a test, recieving a simple menkyo stating what you have done??
Quote:
Still when someone proclaims they are not interested in testing or that rank has no meaning I must admit I am pretty quick to ask myself what they really mean. If they start talking about ego I immediately begin to smell the "holier than thou" attitude. Like Chris I know several seriously advanced students of our little thing that have reverted to white belts. Reminding oneself of "beginners mind" is the reason often given and somehow for 7th, 8th Dans to do so sounds right - for Shodan (beginning level) to do so sounds pretentious.
Yet other examples exist. At our club everybody wears a white belt. Beginners wear a white belt, advanced students wear a white belt, teachers wear a white belt. Nobody thinks about it, nobody attaches any value to it. The belt is used because it is part of your training uniform.
A side effect is that students dont understand the value other people attach to the color of their belt. Quite often people come back from seminars being shocked by the bad manners, the sloppy technique and the inflated ego of some blackbelts they met.
Quote:
Let's just say that test when your sensei tells you to, where what the dojo requires, and don't worry about those around you.
In our dojo testing when sensei tells you to means you are not judging your own abilities right and sensei thinks you have waited to long already to do the test.

As a side note: At our school a lot of the serious students see doing a test more as being able to demonstrate for sensei and fellow students their own progress and regard tests sometimes as a gift toward sensei and the fellow students who helped them get that far. IME these tests are conducted very very seriously.

Erik Jurrien Menzel
kokoro o makuru taisanmen ni hirake
Personal:www.kuipers-menzel.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2002, 07:46 AM   #56
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,087
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by erikknoops
Testing is no problem, but why should there be rank attached?? What is wrong with a test, recieving a simple menkyo stating what you have done??
That's just rank by another name. There are plenty of places with menkyo systems that have just as many problems with who got what menkyo when as the kyu-dan places. Is there really a difference between "I am a shodan in Billy-Bob Ryu" and "I am a hiden mokuroku in Billy-Bob Ryu"?

Quote:
Yet other examples exist. At our club everybody wears a white belt. Beginners wear a white belt, advanced students wear a white belt, teachers wear a white belt. Nobody thinks about it, nobody attaches any value to it. The belt is used because it is part of your training uniform.
A side effect is that students dont understand the value other people attach to the color of their belt. Quite often people come back from seminars being shocked by the bad manners, the sloppy technique and the inflated ego of some blackbelts they met.
The belt is just a strip of cloth, it doesn't cause the problem - people cause the problem. The same type of status problems exist in every human society, in every human endeavor, whether there is a formal ranking system or not. It even happens among animal groups.

My personal experience is this - if the central figure in the group (usually the chief instructor) places excessive importance on some kind of status system, whether it be rank or menkyo, then the general population will follow along and problems are likely to occur. OTOH, if that central figure de-emphasizes the heirarchical importance of those types of sytems then problems will be less likely to occur, with very little relation to whether or not a ranking system is actually in place.

In short, IMO rank-related problems have very little to do with whether or not there is a ranking system, but have everything to do with the attitudes of the central figures of a particular group.

Quote:
In our dojo testing when sensei tells you to means you are not judging your own abilities right and sensei thinks you have waited to long already to do the test.
Of course, this varies according to the local customs. Some places the teachers decide, some places they expect the students to decide for themselves. I haven't seen any large advantages of one system over the other.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2002, 09:57 AM   #57
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,724
United_States
Offline
I must admit, I have seen people obtain rank that I personally would not have given it to. But then again, some people may feel that way about me. But, it wasn't and isn't up to me. Its up to the person in charge. They have the right to promote who they want on whatever basis they want.

I tend not to take other's promotion/rank (or my own) too seriously. I think that thinking about rank/testing takes away from the training. Just show up, suit up (whatever color the belt), and train. There rest comes of its own.

If I don't accept my Sensei's ability to promote as he sees fit, perhaps I shouldn't be training under him. Or, I should look at my own ego.

But then again, I would not have promoted me either. Its so hard to turn down a gift offered to an old man.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2002, 03:00 PM   #58
henry brown
 
henry brown's Avatar
Dojo: Soseikan, Worth IL
Location: Chicago suburbs
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 46
Offline
I really hate the way that promotion tests are called "tests". I would really favor if people used a word like "recital". A test is an event where the intent is often to find out what you don't know, whereas a recital is an opportunity to show-off what you do know.

I was recently at my kids' piano recital, where there were a group of children of various ages and expertise. Each child was assigned some pieces a month or two in advance (it least it seemed that long after hearing them over and over), just as aikido students know what will be required of them at each 'test'. No one gave the little kids "11th kyu" in piano, or the older kids "shodan". Still, it was pretty clear from their performances where each child stood.

So, I don't think ranks are particularly useful in terms of measuring an individual's technical expertise. I think they do have some meaning as some sort of combination of technical know-how and dojo reponsibilities. Someone at 1st or 2nd kyu should be prepared to help introduce newer students to dojo etiquette as well as technique. Dan ranks should have teaching and dojo responsibilities.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2002, 04:21 AM   #59
davidmartin
Location: UK
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 3
Offline
I'm interested that the subject of demotions has come, since it is one that I have some personal experience of. When I started training I was very much motivated by gradings and belt colour. I think this is almost inevitable with students new to Aikido. However, after 4 years of diligent and hard training I reached the rank of 1st Kyu, and believed that I had overcome my focus on grade and belt colour. Then... I decided (due to orgainsational politics) to move organisation, and train elsewhere. There was a penalty however... I was demoted all the way back to novice, since my new organisation refused to accept grades from elsewhere.

Now, this was a choice I made myself, but it was very hard to accept, and I realised that I was not quite as "pure of spirit" as I thought . Anyway, I persevered, trained hard, and eventually (after 18 Months), regained my grade of 1st Kyu.

I think I have learnt 2 main things from this..

If you are devoted to your training, you will overcome your natural competitive, ego driven motivations.

If you can honestly say that you train purely "for the love of the art" then you are in a VERY small minority.

All of us suffer from the human foibles of vanity and ego, but the true measure of our commitment to Aikido, is in how we strive to overcome these weakness, and always seek to practice with an open and pure heart.

Dave
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2002, 09:03 AM   #60
"Unregistered"
IP Hash: bffe1f48
Anonymous User
Testing......not.

What really gets me is the fact that people actually think they're doing some kind of test. Unless the "event" includes a written exam, you're not really testing, you're demonstrating what you've learned (or not).....

Prevent a young person from joining a gang, help the elderly, volunteer your time for a just cause...... these are tests of character and spirit. Not how well you dance around a mat with a partner.....

Think about it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2002, 01:10 PM   #61
Arianah
Dojo: Aikido of Norwalk
Location: CT
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 205
Offline
Quote:
What really gets me is the fact that people actually think they're doing some kind of test. Unless the "event" includes a written exam, you're not really testing, you're demonstrating what you've learned (or not).....
A written exam is a demonstration of what you have or have not learned, just demonstrating a different kind of knowledge. I guess I don't see what you mean here . . .

Sarah

Out of clutter, find simplicity.
From discord, find harmony.
In the middle of difficulty, lies opportunity.
-Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2002, 05:56 PM   #62
"Unregistered"
IP Hash: ccdbc9d0
Anonymous User
It is a test, and there's not only the demonstration, there's the challenge of being under public scrutiny.. I don't know I've observed people who stress out under the test when everyone knows they can perform the technique , but with the added pressure it becomes a challenge.
maybe writing is harder for you, therefore it is a "test" vs. demonstrating. Lucky you (maybe not)
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2002, 05:57 PM   #63
"Unregistered"
IP Hash: ccdbc9d0
Anonymous User
What I don't know could fill the rest of the universe...
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2002, 07:22 PM   #64
"Unregistered"
IP Hash: 50c7dd15
Anonymous User
Have nothing to say cool quck thingy!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2002, 02:09 AM   #65
batemanb
 
batemanb's Avatar
Dojo: Seibukan Aikido UK
Location: body in UK, heart still in Japan
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,029
Offline
Quote:
David Martin (davidmartin) wrote:
I'm interested that the subject of demotions has come, since it is one that I have some personal experience of. When I started training I was very much motivated by gradings and belt colour. I think this is almost inevitable with students new to Aikido. However, after 4 years of diligent and hard training I reached the rank of 1st Kyu, and believed that I had overcome my focus on grade and belt colour. Then... I decided (due to orgainsational politics) to move organisation, and train elsewhere. There was a penalty however... I was demoted all the way back to novice, since my new organisation refused to accept grades from elsewhere.

Now, this was a choice I made myself, but it was very hard to accept, and I realised that I was not quite as "pure of spirit" as I thought . Anyway, I persevered, trained hard, and eventually (after 18 Months), regained my grade of 1st Kyu.

I think I have learnt 2 main things from this..

If you are devoted to your training, you will overcome your natural competitive, ego driven motivations.

If you can honestly say that you train purely "for the love of the art" then you are in a VERY small minority.

All of us suffer from the human foibles of vanity and ego, but the true measure of our commitment to Aikido, is in how we strive to overcome these weakness, and always seek to practice with an open and pure heart.

Dave
I too have had a similar experience to Dave. I trained for nine years or so back in the UK, in a dojo that focused on the training more than the grading (didn`t say test ). As a result of this I had never been bothered about what colour my belt was (or so I thought). I took four tests during that time and was graded ikkyu when I moved on.

When I arrived in Japan, I went straight to the Aikikai Hombu and joined up, only to be told that my ikkyu was not recognised because my UK dojo was not Aikikai, I would have to start again from the beginning. As someone who who thought they weren`t bothered about grades, I was surprised when I found myself resenting this. I had worked hard for nine years to get where I was and it was being wiped away without a thought. I festered on it for three or four weeks, even contemplated giving up completely before I came to the conclusion that it was only disappointment. Losing the grade did not make my aikido any worse, did not change my ability (what little there was anyways ), it really is all about my training, not my grade, I made the choice to carry on. As it turned out, I moved apartments shortly after and quite by chance found myself living about 3 minutes away from a local dojo, which was a lot more convenient than the 40 minute trip to Hombu. I went to visit and signed up immediately and have been training regularly ever since. After nine months, I took my first grading and was bumped to nikkyu. OK, that`s not the grade I had before I came here, but do I really care, not any more (I think? ), guess I`ll just have to keep training to find out.

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2002, 12:26 AM   #66
Ben_t_shodan
Dojo: Aikido Institute of Michigan, Seiwa Dojo
Location: Michigan
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 36
Offline
Re: undeserved promotion?

Quote:
() wrote:
Hello,

Just wondering if any of you have witnessed students pass a test when you felt they didn't have enough skills to justify the promotion. Do you think some instructors can be a bit lenient promoting students at times?

Wondering....
I remember in 1994 at a camp that I watched a Shodan test, it was not... Um.. up to par so to say. I saw one of out high ranking instructors lay down and take a nap less than half way through the test.

and the scary part was, he passed!

thank you,

Ben
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2002, 09:43 AM   #67
"Unregistered"
IP Hash: bb16a055
Anonymous User
"As soon as you concern yourself with the "good" and "bad" of your fellows, you create an opening in your heart for maliciousness to enter. Testing, competing with, and criticizing others weaken and defeat you." -Morihei Ueshiba Sensei
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2002, 03:25 PM   #68
aikigreg
Dojo: Mizu Aikido
Location: Ft. Worth Texas
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 94
Offline
Not to put too fine a point on it, but my comment would be to keep in mind that as each dojo tests differently, different techniques are likely stressed. So while my iriminage might be pretty good, and at a level above my current rank, my kotegaeshi might not be up to your par. (I know mine isn't, partially due to a slight handicap). That doesn't mean I haven't earned my rank.

And as far as belt goes, I prefer white belts for three reasons:

1. it matches my gi color - instant coordination!

2. It (partially) removes some of the internal competition inherent to most martial arts, and that Aikido largely tries to avoid. I'm appreciative of that fact.

3. I find it nice to be able to practice, learn, and grow without having to pay attention to where I am exactly on the totem pole. If I give it a lot of conscious thought I know where I stand, but in the day-to-day workings of the dojo it's not obvious and my attention is on better things.

My suggestion: Pay attention to yourself and your uke. Help them, train diligently, and forget about the rest as much as is possible.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2002, 09:22 AM   #69
stoker
Dojo: Dallas Judo & Jiu Jitsu
Location: Southlake, Texas
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 31
Offline
You also have to remember that some people test poorly but have demonstrated their abilities and knowledge in the past. On my Judo Shodan test I drew a blank on the name of the second part of the three parts of a throw -- I took me a full thirty seconds of patomime with a series of frantic waza and saying the words as I went before I said the right word. I did not even realize I said it!

Felt like real moron about that.

Also remember that being tired at the end of a test can also cause problems. A friend in a Jiu Jitsu test was running on empty after two hours of heavy physical activity and 'reacted'. The testing black belt wanted a technique to block his right jab. Tori did a strong palm strike to the sternum that sent the black belt first horizontal and then a hard brakfall from about five and a half feet. The BB was expecting a block and a pulled punch and not to have his rib cage rattled. He did end the test shorting after that :-)

dave stokes
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2002, 07:14 PM   #70
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 893
Offline
I see that there are many of you who have seen grading inadequeces.

I know that most teachers who review the innitiate who is testing with a particular set of requirements in mind. Even if some of the students do not see this, most good instructors will point out key things that instructors are looking for at the different test grades. The same goes for practice in different styles of Aikido. I could go on for a couple of pages, but then that would be telling tales out of class, wouldn't it ... and take away some of the magic of practice. So, take heart, eventually you will either find the fine details, or be instructed in them so you too can sit and critique the performance of others. Kindly and without being judgemental, of course. As far as instructors wearing white belts, maybe you should have more classes in street clothes ... this too levels the playing field and makes you aware of using Aikido in other dimensions than the dojo. Most of the teachers I know, enjoy teaching, but also enjoy being part of the class too.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2004, 10:10 PM   #71
Niadh
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido, MA
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 69
Offline
Re: undeserved promotion?

Quote:
PeterR wrote:
Let's just say that test when your sensei tells you to, where what the dojo requires, and don't worry about those around you.
Peter,
It is amazing how one person can put in so few words what another needs 3 paragraphs to try to say.
Thank you
Niadh

Non Satis Scire
Niadh Feathers
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2004, 04:09 AM   #72
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,218
Offline
Re: undeserved promotion?

[b]What is a colored belt to a blind person?
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Promotion in MAAF PhilJ General 9 09-16-2005 02:56 AM
Promotion? blkblt Anonymous 14 11-25-2004 10:31 PM
Yudansha Promotion Fees? Jim Sorrentino Testing 0 11-05-2004 10:10 AM
Promotion: Clyde Takeguchi Sensei Promoted to 7th Dan AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 2 09-15-2003 02:40 PM
High-ranking Non-japanese Yudansha Kami General 86 11-09-2001 04:38 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:48 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate