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Old 04-09-2004, 08:55 AM   #1
tiyler_durden
Location: Amsterdam
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Freaky! How to stop head butts

Hi all,

I was inadvertably in a bar punch up this weekend and was doing very well with my Aikido techniques until one guy head butted me.
It was kind of lights out form there on (You have no idea how bad it smarted,my eyes gazed over).

Has any one got any ides on this one?

Thanks
Tiyler

"Deal with the faults as gently a your own"
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Old 04-09-2004, 09:13 AM   #2
Kensai
Location: South West UK
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Ah the old 'Irimi men tsuki' or Glasgow kiss!

Bottomline, move faster.

Last edited by Kensai : 04-09-2004 at 09:16 AM.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 04-09-2004, 09:45 AM   #3
mantis
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always keep good MA AI!
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Old 04-09-2004, 10:07 AM   #4
John Boswell
 
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Good Mai ai, Tenkan the hell outta the way and consider not hanging in the rougher bars. In fact, any bar should be considered rough.

You could always have a metal plate put in??

/cheers

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Old 04-09-2004, 11:36 AM   #5
Richard Cardwell
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Meeting it with a knee on the way up is a traditional response, unless it was a tight horizontal nosebuster! Just make sure there's no concussion.
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Old 04-09-2004, 11:46 AM   #6
willy_lee
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Best response I know of is to head-butt him first

You can do this even defensively if you see it coming and drop your forehead into his nose.

Head butts come from so close and quick that there's not a lot else you can do.

Re: "glasgow kiss" I heard a good one the other day, called the "Scottish pub quiz" -- starts out like this:

A: Can yer mother sew?

B: (some answer)

A: Get her to sew this! (Glasgow kiss here).

=wl

Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
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Old 04-09-2004, 01:21 PM   #7
shihonage
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Are you asking for something that works faster than your own reflexes ?
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Old 04-09-2004, 02:01 PM   #8
willy_lee
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Quote:
Richard Cardwell wrote:
Meeting it with a knee on the way up is a traditional response, unless it was a tight horizontal nosebuster! Just make sure there's no concussion.
Maybe I'm not reading this correctly, but how the heck do you meet a head butt with a knee?

=wl

Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
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Old 04-09-2004, 02:09 PM   #9
zachbiesanz
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Kabuto gaeshi!!!

Aikido is the art of hitting an assailant with the planet.
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Old 04-09-2004, 02:29 PM   #10
Richard Cardwell
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Yeah, realised that was a bit obtuse! This is all brawling rather than Budo, but all you need is a step back, grab, and take the head's motion forward and down, meet it with a knee - the head's motion defines the body's motion after all! It's possible to bend 'em over rather than excessively contort oneself. That was really intended as a flippant remark rather than real advice, though. Headbutts are horribly hard to avoid without just keeping ma ai to a long enough distance.

The best thing to do retroactively is just check for concussion, and be glad your nose isn't smeared.
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Old 04-09-2004, 02:50 PM   #11
Aikilove
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When I was into Jujutsu way back there was a response against headbut that I have brought with me and aikified

Since the headbut is really quick and close by it basically means two things

1. Yer' to close mate! Maai mamn it!

2. Since you are so close there is little room and time to tenkan,

so... shove your (e.g. right) lower arm between him and you so that the whole lower arm has contact with his torso (you right elbow at his right nipple and your tegatana at the left(his left) side of his neck. Its diagonally aligned so to speak.

This will break his forward movement and is fast enough so that you have the chance to have time to do it. After this you can do what ever you want but I usually go for a koshi nage. It's nice if you can do it without actually completely stopping his forward momentum. If you can't then you still have stopped the headbutt from reaching it's target.

/J

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 04-09-2004, 03:20 PM   #12
willy_lee
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Quote:
Richard Cardwell wrote:
all you need is a step back, grab, and take the head's motion forward and down, meet it with a knee
Ah, now I got it, thanks!

=wl

Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
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Old 04-09-2004, 03:34 PM   #13
Don_Modesto
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Quote:
John Boswell wrote:
....any bar should be considered rough.....
Succinct and true enough. Should be said more.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 04-09-2004, 03:55 PM   #14
zachbiesanz
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If you're that close and can't make adequate distance, why not get even closer? When you see his head go back, bring yours immediately with it. A sort of head-atemi? Maybe it'll buy yo utime to do something else, like get farther away...

Aikido is the art of hitting an assailant with the planet.
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Old 04-09-2004, 04:48 PM   #15
DaveO
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Absolutely no offence intended; but simply saying "any bar should be considered rough" doesn't help a lot; there are folks who by reason of their job - such as cops or bouncers - have no choice but to be in those areas - cops and bouncers get headbutted a lot. Ma-ai is also in these situations wishful thinking; if a guy's attacking; he's going to be all over you like a dirty shirt; you'll have neither time nor space to establish distance. Bar fights are always quick, dirty and alcohol-driven; it's important to remember that. If the guy knows what he's doing, a headbutt is generally too quick to avoid. The arc of movement is only about 6 inches. Those experienced with this form of confrontation have a tendancy to protect the head by keeping it hunched low and cocked to the side in a 'bull' position - there's less of a chance of a guy headbutting you if he thinks he's going to hit your forehead instead of the nose. Also in this sort of conflict it's important to keep your hands in front of you - up in a guard position whenever possible both for protection and to keep him from rushing into a clinch; the most likely time for a headbutt.

Hope that helps.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 04-10-2004, 02:38 AM   #16
adriangan
 
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if i was that close, i'd do a hazushi by using my index and middle fingers to press down at the bottom of my attacker's throat.

"Masakatsu Agatsu"
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Old 04-10-2004, 03:03 AM   #17
taras
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avoid eye contact, that's when you'll fail to judge your maai. if your attacker is too close already, drop your centre and move your head forward so that he hits you on your forehead with his eyebrow.

But I wouldn't go to a place like that again.
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Old 04-10-2004, 08:16 AM   #18
graham butt
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whenever i get hit... my sensei always say "MOVE"
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Old 04-10-2004, 08:48 AM   #19
JessePasley
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Tyler,

A head butt could come several different ways, so I'm wondering what sort of positioning was involved.

1) If at shirt-grabbing distance (and ripe for a good butting), the easist answer is headbutt him first (so that means back to more training!!!), or at least move into....

2) The clinch: Grabbing the back of the head is what many inexperienced head-butt-ers do. You, being a martial artist type, should keep two things in mind when in a good clinch: first, move in to keep your face jammed up in his. People don't like to have their face rubbed and this sets his motion going backwards. second, attacking with the knees from a clinch should be second nature. at the very least this keeps him busy.

3) If your head-butt-er came from a distance, as if he were playing soccer with your face, well, then, you're dealing with a spazzed-out nut, and there's really nothing you can do with those guys except for sheer reactions.

But really, hindsight is 20/20. These are merely suggestions for further training. And during bar fights chances are you are going to be hurt, but decisive action to create distance (or to put the beat-down on them) will make a big difference.
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Old 04-11-2004, 05:21 PM   #20
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
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Glass him?

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 04-12-2004, 04:33 AM   #21
tiyler_durden
Location: Amsterdam
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Hey,

Dave and Jesse thanks for the answers I was seeking.

I had no idea I would have such a huge response.

Much appreciated and thank you for taking the time to answer my question with your expertise and knowledge.

Tiyler_durden.

"Deal with the faults as gently a your own"
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Old 04-25-2004, 12:46 PM   #22
Chris Birke
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Re: How to stop head butts

Best way to avoid a headbutt is to either be too far away, or too close. If you can't get far away, have your head right up against his. Body lock, or wrap your hands behind his neck (fingers NOT laced) with your elbows down, together, and pressed against his chest. Pull down on his kneck with all your weight and move your hips back (semi sprawl). Then just respond to his energy by manipulating his neck or torso. Once the time is right, you can push away or torque him into a fall. (if your opponent knows this methodolgy, however, things get more complicated...)
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Old 04-25-2004, 08:41 PM   #23
Jeremy Gelman
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Re: How to stop head butts

haha, just watch out when you swing your knee into his head, you might kill him!
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Old 04-26-2004, 05:08 AM   #24
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: How to stop head butts

Quote:
DaveO wrote:
Absolutely no offence intended; but simply saying "any bar should be considered rough" doesn't help a lot; there are folks who by reason of their job - such as cops or bouncers - have no choice but to be in those areas - cops and bouncers get headbutted a lot. Ma-ai is also in these situations wishful thinking; if a guy's attacking; he's going to be all over you like a dirty shirt; you'll have neither time nor space to establish distance. Bar fights are always quick, dirty and alcohol-driven; it's important to remember that. If the guy knows what he's doing, a headbutt is generally too quick to avoid. The arc of movement is only about 6 inches. Those experienced with this form of confrontation have a tendancy to protect the head by keeping it hunched low and cocked to the side in a 'bull' position - there's less of a chance of a guy headbutting you if he thinks he's going to hit your forehead instead of the nose. Also in this sort of conflict it's important to keep your hands in front of you - up in a guard position whenever possible both for protection and to keep him from rushing into a clinch; the most likely time for a headbutt.

Hope that helps.
I am sorry; those that are advocating a knee to the head as a defense against a head butt are being unrealistic about the range at which a head butt takes place and how quick it is. Those who advocate tenkan movement as a response would be correct in that this would PRECLUDE a head butt but once again it is unrealistic at the range that one is most likely to encounter a head butt.

Dave is correct, the best defense against a head butt is position. Hold you head so that it doesn't present a good target and keep your hands up and your elbows down and close so that the subject who takes you to grappling range will encounter your forearms against his chest or shoulders. This will allow you to head butt him but he won't be able to head butt you.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 04-26-2004, 08:30 AM   #25
SeiserL
 
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Re: How to stop head butts

What was the maai? Head butts are usually very close range.

IMHO, roll the head like a tenkan off the attack line bringing your elbow to the rear of the head or the temple. Or, slip off the attack line and irimi with the elbow to the bridge of the nose. Keep your hands up and elbows down unless striking.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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