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Old 04-10-2004, 03:49 PM   #1
disabledaccount
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Dojo injuries... Yikes!

On thursday one of our students was taking ukemi for kata tori irimi-nage. One of her hands got tangled in nage's gi and she panicked. Instead of taking a good back-fall, she sat down with both hands extended behind her in order to catch herself and broke both of her arms just above the wrist.

Now it has always seemed rather obvious to me that that in spite of Aikido's public relations image of peace and light, that should someone attack a skilled Aikidoka "on-the-street" they would have to have excellent ukemi in order to escape injury in the event that the Aikidoka gained the upper hand.

At any rate, I digress. How many of you have had serious injuries occur in your dojo, or witnessed them in seminars? Was uke or nage the responsible party? Or did they both cooperate in creating an injury? How active should uke's role be in providing for his/her own safety?
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Old 04-10-2004, 06:17 PM   #2
disabledaccount
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Oh, post script:

This poor girl had a crappy job with no benifits or health insurance. They won't be paying her through her recovery period, which will probably be at least two months. Anyone have any ideas on what sort of services, charities etc. My be available to help her out? Our dojo has taken up a modest collection, but frankly, it's not going to be enough. Any suggestions would be great.
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Old 04-10-2004, 09:51 PM   #3
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
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First, although I have no ideas about what to do, I wanted to say (for what it's worth) that I'm immensely sorry to hear about this woman's injury. That's tough.

Recently, although I would scarcely call it a serious injury, I and my partner fell on my hand while messing around, injuring my fingers for about a week. Possibly could have been worse. The lesson I took from it, and I think from the above example, is /watch your hands/. If they get trapped under someone (or yourself), bad things happen. That, and in my case (I was messing around a bit), "If you're going to do something crazy, at least pay attention when you do." That's become a little saying for me.
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Old 04-11-2004, 01:16 AM   #4
Janet Rosen
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Quote:
Bodhi Richards (Samurai Jack) wrote:
girl had a crappy job with no benifits or health insurance....Anyone have any ideas on what sort of services, charities etc.
first of all, at least in California, if she is on a payroll, the employer is paying into state disability and, while it doesn't pay as much as the wages, it is something. I believe other states are similar?

second of all, services such as she needs are all quite local (either city or county government, and local chapters of charities) so the front section of the phone book is the place to start.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 04-11-2004, 08:36 AM   #5
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
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I wouldnt call them serious but one of my sempai got a broken nose a while back from a shomen uchi that he didnt totally evade and one of my sensei had his toe stepped on and broken during pracice a few weeks ago. The worst injury I heard of was when my sempai with the broken nose was at a jujitus class, his uke refused to tap out of an armlock that was on and therefore had his arm broken by my sempai. Sorry to hear about the girl in your dojo's injury but I dont know anything about american work benefits.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 04-11-2004, 10:27 AM   #6
MaryKaye
Dojo: Seattle Ki Society
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I've been lucky so far, but my sempai have had cracked ribs and broken toes. My impression is that there are a couple of categories:

(1) Seminars are risky. It's crowded, people don't know each other as well, and fatigue increases the chance that someone will make a mistake. One of my sempai, while still very new, cracked two ribs being thrown into an breakfall at a seminar by a nage who assumed he knew how to do it. (His friends said, "Well, you won't be doing *that* anymore." But he stuck it out, and is our keenest breakfall practicioner nowadays, at age 61.)

Demos, test practice sessions and testing sessions have similar issues--not as crowded, but people are nervous, potentially tired, and distracted. Someone threw his uke into the examiner's table last test session, though luckily she was unhurt.

(2) Getting trapped in clothing is a common cause of injury. Almost all of the minor injuries and near-misses I've seen involved someone getting tangled in their own or someone else's gi or hakama. A good rule is to make sure that all parts of your uniform fit as well as possible (overlength sleeves and legs are trouble) and never to try to continue a technique if you or partner are tangled. A fourth dan recently held me practically in mid-air while she removed my toe from her hakama, thereby probably sparing me a nasty fall.

(3) Communication is important. The worst pain I've ever experienced in aikido could have been avoided by asking partner beforehand "Mind if I try resisting this?" Instead I surprised him and he nearly broke my wrist. The seminar injury mentioned above might have been avoided by a timely "I'm very new--please throw me gently." Or nage could have asked "Are you up for the breakfall?"

Mary Kaye
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Old 04-11-2004, 06:09 PM   #7
Robert Cowham
Dojo: East Sheen Aikido and Kashima No Tachi
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Just curious, isn't there insurance for training which might cover this sort of thing (or is that too wildly expensive in the US?)

Robert
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Old 04-12-2004, 02:35 AM   #8
Bronson
 
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Quote:
Robert Cowham wrote:
Just curious, isn't there insurance for training which might cover this sort of thing
Insurance?? What's that

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 04-12-2004, 09:30 AM   #9
BC
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Quote:
Robert Cowham wrote:
Just curious, isn't there insurance for training which might cover this sort of thing (or is that too wildly expensive in the US?)

Robert
It's not that it is too expensive. It's just not a requirement in the U.S. That said, I believe she might have some recourse through Social Security by claiming a disability. However, I don't know if that is only for long-term vs. short-term disability. Tell her to visit the nearest Social Security Administration office to speak with one of their counsellors.

Regarding injuries, I don't know anyone who has been doing aikido for more than a few years who hasn't had at least one injury, either serious or not. In almost all cases, they were unintentional accidents. I think one has to practice carefully, but also realize that aikido is a martial art, with the potential for injury.

Robert Cronin
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Old 04-12-2004, 11:36 AM   #10
Avery Jenkins
 
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From where I stand, Aikido training after age 45 is all about surviving the injuries. I have broken my nose twice, torn the medial meniscus in my right knee and had a traumatic subluxation of the proximal interphalangeal joint of my left index finger.

All except the first occurred over the past year. OK, it's been a bad year...

Avery

Avery Jenkins
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Old 04-13-2004, 10:17 PM   #11
Joezer M.
 
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I agree that crowded places are dangerous.

We were training kotegaeshi (about two weeks ago), and once when I was uke, after I fell down another person did a breakfall a little bit too close to me and his foot slammed into the side of my head. I've been having terrible headaches ever since...

Joezer
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Old 04-14-2004, 11:24 AM   #12
akiy
 
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Quote:
Joezer Mandagi (Joezer M.) wrote:
We were training kotegaeshi (about two weeks ago), and once when I was uke, after I fell down another person did a breakfall a little bit too close to me and his foot slammed into the side of my head. I've been having terrible headaches ever since...
Have you seen a doctor about this? Head injuries are not something to be careless about, especially if you're still having headaches and such two weeks after the incident...

-- Jun

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Old 04-14-2004, 12:30 PM   #13
Kalle Koskinen
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One simple guy didn't realise what he was doing when he wanted to show how he was told to use nikyo in a real situation (It was the nikyo where nage holds ukes hand to nages shoulder). The S-shaped movement was fast and violent and it was a little bit too fast for me: there was this crack and something in my wrist was slightly misplased. After six months it's healed 80-90%. But the little round bone-thing above the wrist is a little bigger then on the other hand.

During jiyu-waza my friend was about to do kotegaeshi. He did tenkan and grabbed my wrist and during this moment he hit my head strongly with his elbow. Elbow contacted me between my right eye and the right ear where the skull seems to be quite thin. I didn't go down, but I had to pause things for a couple of seconds. It was interesting feeling, but I had headache in the night.

I have also caused a near broken toe. I did a basic kokyo-ho and I added a knee-atemi to the technique (we both aggreed to test this beforehand). This atemi caused my friend to lift a little bit into the air and all of his weight came to his toe... The toe had broken in to places few years ago and this time accident wasn't far.

This reaction to this atemi was a suprise to me and I asked him to do the same to me (I'm always curious about atemis). My reaction was the same and my toe was saved by the fact I was knowing what was coming.

So every time you study some things by yourself, please be careful. At least I learned something and from now on all the additions to techniques are tested first on me.
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Old 04-14-2004, 09:44 PM   #14
Joezer M.
 
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Quote:
Have you seen a doctor about this? Head injuries are not something to be careless about, especially if you're still having headaches and such two weeks after the incident...
I went to a medical rehab. doctor (my mom, btw), and she said "No training!", followed by a long list of I-told-you-sos

She told me that for mild concussions, I just have to avoid high-impact activities for a while.

So I guess I'm off the mat for a couple of weeks.

Thanks for your concern.

Regards,

Joezer
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