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Old 02-19-2004, 02:25 AM   #51
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
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Yann, Peter, I'm well aware of the competition forums that already exist in aikido and didn't believe I was suggesting this wasn't the case. What I was disagreeing with was what I saw as the over-optimistic ideal that more aikido people entering a mma-style tourney would elevate the moral level of the event.

Peter, I was unclear on reading your post whether you agreed with me over randori limiting the spread of techniques generally used or not. While I agree that all are theoretically possible, I do find some more suited to dealing with the initial "clash", others only come into their own if and when the situation has become more 50-50 in posture/dominance terms of the two amicably contesting friends.

Incidentally, one thing I do find quite amusing is that for years Tomiki were derided by more traditional groups for having competition yet now I see a shift to most ma accepting competition as a better bench-mark for competence. I wonder whether this will change yet again in the future.
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Old 02-19-2004, 03:11 AM   #52
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Ian Hurst (happysod) wrote:
Yann, Peter, I'm well aware of the competition forums that already exist in aikido and didn't believe I was suggesting this wasn't the case. What I was disagreeing with was what I saw as the over-optimistic ideal that more aikido people entering a mma-style tourney would elevate the moral level of the event.
Not sure but I think I was just being reactionary and not addressing your comment per se. Too many years with arrogance and competition being uttered in the same breath and just recently an Ian (no relation I'm sure) called Tomiki's work an abomination. Anyhow - I agree. If you could find enough morally superior Aikidoists (good luck), that were good enough that they could take on all comers (they exist), you would still be fighting the tide in a particular MMA event where show is more important than substance. Note I said particular because I don't equate MMA in general with the antics we see in popular TV.
Quote:
Peter, I was unclear on reading your post whether you agreed with me over randori limiting the spread of techniques generally used or not. While I agree that all are theoretically possible, I do find some more suited to dealing with the initial "clash", others only come into their own if and when the situation has become more 50-50 in posture/dominance terms of the two amicably contesting friends.
That's a particularly complicated way of saying technique used depends on circumstance. All Aikido techniques are not created equal and yes some are more suited to the initial "clash" than others. I was referring to the rules of competition excluding certain techniques and limiting others for safety's sake.
Quote:
Incidentally, one thing I do find quite amusing is that for years Tomiki were derided by more traditional groups for having competition yet now I see a shift to most ma accepting competition as a better bench-mark for competence. I wonder whether this will change yet again in the future.
Kendo was first started 300 odd years ago for the same reason - that's pretty traditional. The argument has been going on even longer than that.

Cheers

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-19-2004, 07:42 AM   #53
Michael Neal
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I just don't see this corruption of the soul so to speak during any Judo competition I have been a part of. There were a couple of people out of maybe a hundred that may have been a bit arrogant, there were alot more arrogant types in a typical Aikido class from my experience.

After even some intense Judo matches we shake hands and congratulate each other on a good fight.
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Old 02-19-2004, 12:32 PM   #54
L. Camejo
 
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Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I just don't see this corruption of the soul so to speak during any Judo competition I have been a part of. There were a couple of people out of maybe a hundred that may have been a bit arrogant, there were alot more arrogant types in a typical Aikido class from my experience.
Of course this again comes down to one's personal experience. In my very limited exposure to national level Judo matches, the vast majority ended in shaking of hands, but a few ended in hospitalisation for the person at the wrong end of a sacrifice technique and 6 months off training. So it all depends on who you are exposed to imho. I don't think there is any categorisation that is immune to expressions of human desperation when under pressure.

As far as the idea of going to seminars or dojo hopping to get an idea of one's capabilities, this is not always a truly objective benchmark, unless the resistance/uncooperative elements of training are emphasised. Otherwise all one is doing is practicing cooperatively in different surroundings, which is still fun, but does not give one a personal benchmark from which to judge the efficacy of his/her technique.

I can say this from experience, as I am often met by looks of total confusion as techniques fail when we do a little "Shodokan style randori" in other systems I train with. The initial sense of confusion is either followed by the arrogant, high horse approach or the humble, re-evaluation of one's technique. Which reaction I get depends on the individual I am training with at the time and not much else. Personally I don't see principled competition being a cure all for these elements of the human condition, as even in principled competition one can find unprincipled human motives and actions.

Just my thoughts.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 02-20-2004, 06:28 AM   #55
Michael Neal
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Just because some people were hospitalized does not mean that there was some sort of maliciousness going on, injuries happen in Judo competition or any other sport for that matter.
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I can say this from experience, as I am often met by looks of total confusion as techniques fail when we do a little "Shodokan style randori" in other systems I train with. The initial sense of confusion is either followed by the arrogant, high horse approach or the humble, re-evaluation of one's technique. Which reaction I get depends on the individual I am training with at the time and not much else. Personally I don't see principled competition being a cure all for these elements of the human condition, as even in principled competition one can find unprincipled human motives and actions.
No one here has really made the case that it is the competition that brings out unprincipled human motives. You mention here that you witnessed this arrogance during regular class time when trying to inject a little randori, it seems the arrogance in these situations is from the non competitors.

I have experienced the same thing in Aikido classes from people who had no problem doing some randori like practice before I started taking Judo. They had no problems with it when they had the advantage over me due to my lack of Aikido experience. Then they started complaining.

There is really no evidence here that it is the competition that brings out bad character, this exists regardless. So the whole Aikido theory about avoiding competition because it brings out bad character is really kind of bunk.
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Old 02-20-2004, 07:17 AM   #56
paw
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As far as the idea of going to seminars or dojo hopping to get an idea of one's capabilities, this is not always a truly objective benchmark, unless the resistance/uncooperative elements of training are emphasised. Otherwise all one is doing is practicing cooperatively in different surroundings, which is still fun, but does not give one a personal benchmark from which to judge the efficacy of his/her technique.
100% absolutely true. Well said!

Regards,

Paul
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Old 02-20-2004, 08:16 AM   #57
L. Camejo
 
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Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Just because some people were hospitalized does not mean that there was some sort of maliciousness going on, injuries happen in Judo competition or any other sport for that matter.
It is true that injuries happen in all sports. As far as hospitalisation and maliciousness goes I was referring to particular incidents that I personally witnessed, and in those incidents the desire to "win at whatever cost" over mutual respect WAS the reason for the application of dangerous technique in a despoerate attempot to win. As you rightly said, this does not mean that folks may not be hospitalised for other reasons.
Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
No one here has really made the case that it is the competition that brings out unprincipled human motives. You mention here that you witnessed this arrogance during regular class time when trying to inject a little randori, it seems the arrogance in these situations is from the non competitors.
Again you are correct. The arrogance did come from the non-competitors. What I am getting at is that it is not so much hte "competition" that brings out unprincipled behaviour, it is the reality of being under extreme pressure (of which competition is only one manifestation), that causes people to do whatever is necessary to "win", instead of first keeping to the tenets of mutual preservation. We see it all the time when we have a terrible morning, an even worse day at work/school and then get into a road rage incident on the drive home. It's a matter of pressure and how we deal with it and in some cases competition provides enough pressure to cause some folks to abandon their loftier ideals.

However, just as the body strengthens and becomes more agile through the "pressure" of exercise, I believe that the mind strengthens in a similar fashion through various pressures as well. In the case of Aikido competition, the pressures of competition training or competition itself allows one to strengthen both technique and mindset, as this training makes one more prepared to handle the internal and external pressures inherent within the competition itself. It's sort of like knowing your enemy. As one gets more accustomed to the pressure, its effects on the person are less noticeable.
Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I have experienced the same thing in Aikido classes from people who had no problem doing some randori like practice before I started taking Judo. They had no problems with it when they had the advantage over me due to my lack of Aikido experience. Then they started complaining.
Have been there as well.
Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
There is really no evidence here that it is the competition that brings out bad character, this exists regardless. So the whole Aikido theory about avoiding competition because it brings out bad character is really kind of bunk.
I couldn't agree more.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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http://www.mushinkan.ca
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