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Old 01-18-2004, 09:11 AM   #1
Kat.C
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Rolling out ot kaitennage

I'm having difficulty rolling from kaitennage without hurting myself, I just keep smashing my back on the mat. I used to get hurt being thrown into front rolls because I was so nervous about rolling but now I enjoy it, so it was a bit of a surprise to me when doing this technique last class that I hurt myself. I kept trying to adjust the way I was rolling but not much seemed to help. Does anyone else have problems rolling from kaitennage? I can sometimes manage a decent roll when sensei throws me and once or twice with my husband but most of the time it is rather painful. Anyone have any ideas?

Kat

I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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Old 01-18-2004, 11:46 AM   #2
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Yep, rolling out of kaiten-nage was rough to learn.

Ask your tori/nage to go slow and extend the throw further out to allow you more space to roll and more time to set yourself up for it. Just relax and follow the circle over as you exhale. With time and training you will gain the expereince to roll out of Kaiten-nage easily.

Lynn Seiser PhD
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Old 01-18-2004, 09:13 PM   #3
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Energize your arm. Don't let your arm go soft and don't roll on or off of your shoulder. Energize your rolling arm and roll up and off of the forearm so that there is minimal pressure on your shoulder. Hope this helps.

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Old 01-18-2004, 09:14 PM   #4
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In a traditional kaitenage, the arm is thrown across the back and the nage moves like a discus thrower. This complicates the ukemi, since it adds a torque to the throw. Trying to do a normal forward roll becomes difficult.

What I've been taught and do, is jump. As soon as you feel the throw coming on, you jump into your forward roll. You can't wait for the nage to complete the technique or else you'll go spinning off at an angle and land on your side.

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Old 01-19-2004, 01:24 AM   #5
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I had a bit of trouble doing it as well - it's really a difficult technique to do ukemi for, but i've found that if i focus upon keeping the intention within the attack, then It's a lot easier. Don't stop attacking just because your'e in an awkward position.

Works for me anyway...

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Old 01-19-2004, 06:46 AM   #6
indomaresa
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did you jump? some students I know did that and caused a serious impact on their backside.

follow the push, and roll like a normal ukemi.

imagine you're a ball.

actually, that's the main priciple for any kind of ukemi.

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Old 01-19-2004, 09:01 AM   #7
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Hi Ted,
Quote:
Ted Ehara (tedehara) wrote:
What I've been taught and do, is jump. As soon as you feel the throw coming on, you jump into your forward roll. You can't wait for the nage to complete the technique or else you'll go spinning off at an angle and land on your side.
For me, at least, I make sure to pretty much never jump into a roll or a fall since I feel that's something I can only do when I have the option to do so. When the option is taken away, then what? Also, doing so seems like a disconnect on uke's part; I try to keep the connection all the way into the roll/fall if possible...

Kaitennage, in my experience, doesn't leave me with such an option to jump into the roll when done quickly and vigorously. When it's done with the balance break, head cradle, and vertical axis rotation, there is just no way that I know of to jump into the ukemi; rather, it's more like a breakfall with th erotation point being near the head and also spinning horizontally (along the vertical axis) -- not the easiest ukemi.

Things I keep in mind include moving from my center, tucking my head into the fall, and staying relaxed...

-- Jun

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Old 01-19-2004, 09:57 AM   #8
Ron Tisdale
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The versions of kaitenage I am most familiar with actually throw across uke's shoulders (I believe this is the horizontal componant that Jun refered to). This means that for me (as well as Jun apparently) a jumping breakfall is out of the question. I tend to make a line between the arm controlled by nage/shite and my 'forward' arm, and actually roll across my shoulders along that line; from the tip of my little finger on the forward arm, across the shoulders, and down the other arm (sometimes slapping, sometimes not).

There should be a preferred method in your dojo that is appropriate to the way the throw is used there. Your instructor should be best able to help you there.

Ron

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Old 01-19-2004, 10:12 AM   #9
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Hi Ron,
Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
The versions of kaitenage I am most familiar with actually throw across uke's shoulders (I believe this is the horizontal componant that Jun refered to).
Not quite.

I guess the "hand/arm to uke's opposite shoulder" is like a car rolling sideways (eg from one passenger-side door, the roof, then the driver-side door, then the undercarriage). You can, of course, also spin the car front over back (eg front grill, the roof, back bumper, then the undercarrigage) as well as in a spin (like you might get when you speed up in a turn on an icy road).

I think a good kaitennage involves all of these components...

-- Jun

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Old 01-19-2004, 11:13 AM   #10
indomaresa
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when I say jump, I mean;

"to propel yourself prematurely on your own accord by guessing the nage's intention'

this is a no-no in ukemi. (and this brings up some bad memories too)
Quote:
Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
Hi Ted,

Kaitennage, in my experience, doesn't leave me with such an option to jump into the roll when done quickly and vigorously. When it's done with the balance break, head cradle, and vertical axis rotation, there is just no way that I know of to jump into the ukemi; rather, it's more like a breakfall with th erotation point being near the head and also spinning horizontally (along the vertical axis) -- not the easiest ukemi.

-- Jun
The advanced kaitennage (quickly and vigorously, complete with the balance break, head cradle and vertical axis rotation) isn't supposed to be practiced by people with passing familiarity with breakfalls anyway. I know someone who stopped aikido because of this mistake.

Regular kaitennage where the nage let go after the final shove., executed slowly should allow the uke to learn rolling easily.

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Old 01-19-2004, 04:08 PM   #11
Kat.C
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Thanks for the replies everyone. I think staying relaxed during a roll from kaitenage is going to be the hardest thing for me now, I'm actually hoping to avoid doing it for quite some time. I don't think I particularily want to jump into the roll, it would probably hurt more and we try not to go until we are actually thrown by nage. Jun did you mean you breakfall out of kaitennage? If so how do you do that? I've started breakfalls and learning them is more fun, and more terrifying, than learning rolls and no pain so far! I don't believe I'm collapsing my arm at all I learned the hard way not to do that; landed on my shoulder once which was incredibly painful, I've not done it since.

Kat

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Old 01-19-2004, 05:17 PM   #12
akiy
 
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Quote:
Maresa Sumardi (indomaresa) wrote:
The advanced kaitennage (quickly and vigorously, complete with the balance break, head cradle and vertical axis rotation) isn't supposed to be practiced by people with passing familiarity with breakfalls anyway.
I don't think I said that a beginner should be taking breakfalls from kaitennage. Rather, I was saying that relying on "jumping" into a roll/fall isn't something that I feel I'd want people to pick up, especially as that is not an option that I feel is available later on. Better to curtail such habits before they get ingrained, I think.

As far as the breakfall from kaitennage goes, it's a lot more easily seen than explained. One way such a breakfall may occur is, say, when nage "cups" your head/neck as they extend your "non-rolling" hand out past your shoulder with their other hand. When combined with a good balance break, uke really doesn't have much recourse but to rotate over that hand that's cupping your head/neck. Hope that helps.

-- Jun

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Old 01-19-2004, 08:01 PM   #13
Kyri Honigh
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Hi people,

I just like to say about how i feel about it.

When I was getting tips after class from my sempai. He told me a common mistake was that I didn't always follow through. Sometimes the direction in wich i was rolling didn't coincide with the direction he was throwing me. He showed me how much you can damage yourself if u don't follow. Try and feel your partner more. And to me jumping is dangerous, especially if u made a bad estimation of the force and direction the throw would have. I prefer to keep my body as low to the ground before rolling or taking a breakfall. Good luck
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Old 01-19-2004, 09:30 PM   #14
Peter Goldsbury
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There seems to be a double issue here: how the technique is performed and how the ukemi is executed. In the interests of clarity, the following is how I understand the vertical component and the horizontal component of the technique.

When the technique is done omote, the kaiten (rotation) is on a vertical plane between uke's head and arm, which is held vertically. Whether the ukemi is a roll or a breakfall depends entirely on how low the technique is executed, whether tori is at the side of uke or slightly behind, i.e., how 'tight' the taisabaki is, whether tori holds the head or neck and for how long, i.e., whether during the technique tori lets go early on and allows uke to roll in a preferred direction, or holds on to the head and forces a breakfall.

When the technique is done ura, the kaiten is on a horizontal plane and involves uke's head and arm (which is spun round on to a horizontal plane like a spiral). Again, the ukemi depends on the height of the technique and the 'tightness' of the taisabaki leading to the throw. I myself prefer a particular type of 'spiral' taisabaki, but the ukemi from this can be difficult.

Here we teach kaiten-nage to beginners and thay have no particular trouble with ukemi from the omote form. For ura, we make sure that both tori and uke know exactly where uke will be thrown. For ura, at least in the form that I do the technique, this is quite difficult to master.

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Old 01-19-2004, 10:23 PM   #15
Peter Goldsbury
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Perhaps I should add (to my last post) that in my own dojo, we teach beginners ukemi in a fairly strict sequence and the ukemi from kaiten-nage (an ukemi where one hand is held and the direction is controlled by tori) comes fairly late in the sequence. To add some context, these same beginners are now being introduced to mae ukemi with the arms folded, or the obi grasped (i.e., without any use of the hands as a guide).

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Old 01-20-2004, 02:04 AM   #16
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Peter, you're evil, I like it. I suppose you're also a fan of the flip and sideways ukemis (with and without arms)...

Back on topic, no argument or anything to add with what's been put forward so far regarding relaxation for the projected kaiten-nage. As regards the head cradle/arm trapped version, I prefer to think of it as a controlled, relaxed splat rather than a ukemi. If I could roll out of it my partner's doing it wrong.

[insert badly translated smug admonishment here]
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Old 01-20-2004, 08:51 AM   #17
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Rolling out ot kaitennage

Quote:
Kathryn Cole (Kat.C) wrote:
I'm having difficulty rolling from kaitennage without hurting myself, I just keep smashing my back on the mat. I used to get hurt being thrown into front rolls because I was so nervous about rolling but now I enjoy it, so it was a bit of a surprise to me when doing this technique last class that I hurt myself. I kept trying to adjust the way I was rolling but not much seemed to help. Does anyone else have problems rolling from kaitennage? I can sometimes manage a decent roll when sensei throws me and once or twice with my husband but most of the time it is rather painful. Anyone have any ideas?
Actually, there is a chance it might not be you at all. If nage is holding your collar and doesn't let go soon enough, it doesn't matter how you roll, you are going to go over and slam on the mat. That is actually the way my sensei used to do the technique. He would hang on to your collar with one hand while he turned and tossed with the other and he hung on to the collar the whole time. It feels strange because uke has no control. All you can do in that case is to reach behind you as far as you can with the other hand and try to slap before your body makes impact.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 01-20-2004, 09:54 AM   #18
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Hi Peter,
Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury (Peter Goldsbury) wrote:
Perhaps I should add (to my last post) that in my own dojo, we teach beginners ukemi in a fairly strict sequence
I, for one, would be interested in reading about the sequence that you use in teaching ukemi.

Thank you, too, for your thoughts in your first post on this subject. Very clearly written...

-- Jun

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Old 01-20-2004, 11:11 AM   #19
Amendes
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I wish I could watch and offer assistance.

All I can say is.

Next time pay attention to which way you foot is pointing when you enter the roll.

You should be pointing into the direction you are being thrown. If not you will rotate inccorectly and land on you back or side.. etc.. Also breath out when you hit the mats.

I learned this the hard way when I took kotegeshi with my foot pointed wrong.

Oh yeah I held my breath that time too.

Most important though is never give up.

cheerio
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Old 01-20-2004, 01:42 PM   #20
Kat.C
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I'm having problems with both the omote and ura versions of kaitennage and after reading these posts I'm beginning to think that the main problem is that I'm not rolling in quite the same direction that nage is trying to throw me. Of course that problem is that I can't quite figure out where nage is throwing me. It just feels really awkward, nage has me kind of twisted up and when they go to throw it feels like I'm being pushed sideways even though their extending me forwards so I'm never really sure which way I'm going. I hadn't really thought that was a problem until some people mentioned it in their posts. Part of the my trouble last class was due to nage throwing me improperly a couple of times as well. Still shouldn't I be able to roll comfortably even if I don't go in the exact direction I'm being thrown or if nage doesn't execute the technique properly? I doubt I'm doing the technique perfectly but my ukes don't seem to have difficulty, aside from some beginners that is.
Quote:
Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
Hi Peter,

I, for one, would be interested in reading about the sequence that you use in teaching ukemi.

Thank you, too, for your thoughts in your first post on this subject. Very clearly written...

-- Jun
I agree with Jun,(on both comments), would you mind posting your ukemi sequence if you have time Professor Goldsbury?

Kat

I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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Old 01-20-2004, 02:12 PM   #21
Kat.C
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Quote:
Andrew Mendes (Amendes) wrote:
Also breath out when you hit the mats.

I learned this the hard way when I took kotegeshi with my foot pointed wrong.

Oh yeah I held my breath that time too.

Most important though is never give up.

cheerio
Yes I've fallen while holding my breath a few times, definitely uncomfortable, even worse though is falling while laughing, positively winded myself a few times.

Kat

I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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Old 01-21-2004, 08:04 AM   #22
Peter Goldsbury
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Quote:
Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
Hi Peter,

I, for one, would be interested in reading about the sequence that you use in teaching ukemi.

Thank you, too, for your thoughts in your first post on this subject. Very clearly written...

-- Jun
Hello Jun,

Well, I think in a recent issue of Aikido-L there was a post about Donovan Waite's method:

----------

6th Kyu

Back roll from kneeling

Back roll from standing

Front roll from kneeling

Front roll from standing

5th kyu

Ushiro Yoko Kaiten from standing and kokyo nage

Back stretch into a back fall

4th Kyu

Mae yoko kaiten from standing and kotegaeshi

3rd Kyu

Front roll with no hands

Ushiro mae yoko kaiten from standing and tenchinage

Breakfalls

Continuous opposite side rolls (back and forth without stopping)

2nd Kyu

Mae yoko kaiten from jujinage

Koshinage falls

1st Kyu

Ushiro Otoshi from Iriminage

----------

My own students start at 5th kyu and are preparing for their 3rd kyu tests, but I see that we have more or less followed Donovan's sequence, though I do not use the same terminology.

If you look at it another way, the sequence involves two crucial aspects: (1) the student learns to be aware and to control where his/her body is at any point during the ukemi; (2) this awareness and control is present even when someone else is executing the technique.

So we start from seiza with the feet flat on the ground and the student learns to 'energize' the arm, look backwards, to roll over the shoulders and\very important\not to stop breathing.

We then progress to hanza, with heels raised and and then do a forward roll, with the same roll done exactly in reverse. The roll must be done straight and the feet should end up as they were in the starting position, no matter which direction the roll is executed. The head must not touch the mat.

Finally the same sequence is done from a standing hanmi, again with backward roll being a mirror image of the forward roll.

By the time they get to this stage, students have sone idea of the notion of controlling their bodies in space, so we have then rolling over people crouching on the ground or with their eyes closed, using the other arm (e.g., starting in left hanmi but rolling on the right arm), or rolling in pairs holding hands (one partner doing left ukemi and one doing right). If I am instructing and there is sufficient space, I sometimes have them practice standing mae ukemi in eight directions, starting with either arm and ending up on either foot.

This takes up 20 or 30 minutes of the beginners class and so all the subsequent techniques have to be keyed into the ukemi being practised. Generally speaking, if one arm is held, like in shiho-nage, the ukemi is ushiro, but with uke following the prescribed sequence. Since we always do kote-gaeshi with a pin, the ukemi here, too is ushiro ukemi.

The next step is to do a technique like sumi-otoshi with mae-ukemi, where the leading arm is being held by tori, who has some control over where to throw. With sumi-otoshi as ukemi practice, you can allow uke to turn the body in the direction of the throw and roll out of it, or progressively make the taisabi 'tighter', and with atemi, so that uke has to take a 'backward' mae ukemi. I sometimes teach this by have uke keeping his/her attention focussed on tori as far as possible all the way through the throw.

And, very important, we always actually demonstrate the proper ukemi in any particular technique by doing it ourselves, i.e., we show the techniques with a beginner (anybody\no preferences) as uke and the beginner then does the technique with the instructor as uke.

For 4th kyu, kaiten nage was a required technique, but the way we have taught this so far is very gentle, with the neck held (not the head) and the student allowed to roll out of the technique straight, not sideways. For ura, before starting the technique, tori has to tell uke where he/she will end up. For 3rd kyu, the attack will still be katate-dori gyaku hanmi, but the soto mawari variation will be expected, as well as the usual uchi-mawari version.

Notice that we have not yet begun to teach breakfalls. This will come along with basic koshi-nage for the 2nd kyu.

Notice also that the emphasis has been firmly placed on cooperation between tori and uke. I am well aware of the issues here, but we believe that principled lack of cooperation can be done with profit only after principled cooperation has been mastered.

We are coming to the end of our second year in the new dojo and injuries so far have been zero.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 01-21-2004, 09:44 AM   #23
akiy
 
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Hi Peter,

Much appreciation and many thanks for describing and explaining your sequence of teaching ukemi. It's quite refreshing to hear that people are taking the time and energy to think about ukemi in such a systematic manner.

I also appreciate your emphasis on "principled cooperation," especially during the beginning phase. Additionally, I, too, believe that proper ukemi should be shown to beginners by the instructor in the same manner that the technique itself is shown.

Lastly, I think it's very telling that you have not had any injuries at a brand new dojo over its first two years. My compliments on the success of your dojo!

Best regards,

-- Jun

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Old 01-27-2004, 06:45 AM   #24
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I have noticed that some people who have trouble taking ukemi from kaitenage also have trouble throwing.

I think it is a reluctance to give and receive. If nage firmly throws uke then there is the unconcious (perhaps) feeling that they will recieve like treatment as uke.

Recieving ukemi from kaitenage requires acceptance and trust. Both of these come from practice, patience and compassion.

I used to HATE it.... now I LOVE it.

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Old 01-27-2004, 12:29 PM   #25
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Well I had been hoping to avoid doing kaitennage for a while but I finally got a chance to go to a Friday morning class and of course that was the technique we did. And last night when sensei used me as uke for demonstrating a technique it was kaitennage, omote and ura! I've discovered though, that alot of the trouble I'm having is due to the way nage throws me. On Friday morning I had a few awkward rolls though they weren't painful, and no problems when it was sensei throwing me. And again,last night when sensei threw me my rolls were fine, but when we went to work in pairs the first time my partner threw me I landed hard on my back.This time I noticed that he had my arm in different position then sensei had, so he corrected that for his next throw and everything was fine after that. Of course my rolls still need work but I'm no longer worried about rolling out of kaitennage, at least not with sensei throwing me

Kat

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