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Old 12-29-2003, 07:07 AM   #26
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
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Quote:
the training objectives are never external (for example: "to win" or "beat" the opponent), rather they are internal: to search for self-excellence, to conquer and surpass your weaknesses, become a better human being, all other things can be judged secondary and even superficial if this is taken into consideration.
Sounds a bit similar to the following, taken from Sean Flynn of Berkeley Tomiki Aikido from this website -http://www.tomiki.org/rules.html
Quote:
In a tournament, one is pitted against a smart, trained player who is not giving you an inch--who, in fact is doing his or her best to plunge a Styrofoam "knife" into your chest. It is full speed, and as close as one can safely get to combat. And, what gives it its ultimate value is that it forces one to make one's Aikido work: One has to apply techniques that subdue, but that do not injure the other player. One has to deal Justly, Kindly, Harmoniously, and in the True Spirit of Aikido--and do it under the harshest of circumstances. It is for that reason that shiai is valuable, for it is as much a test of spirit as of skill.

What is more, it constantly forces the player to deal with a poor mind set. For the temptation is always there in a tournament--as it is in life--to be fixated upon winning, upon the ego, upon petty and worthless thoughts. As one plays more and more Randori and Shiai, however, one learns to reject these illusions, to become one with the moment, and to enjoy and experience true Aiki.
I agree with Hanna that we may like to believe certain things about ourselves, especially the "more evolved" things. Of course, for those of us who are not too delusional about what we would like to believe and what is the hard reality, there are ways to train the mind/body to achieve these levels, and I think when one embarks upon this type of training any gap between philosophy and martial effectiveness/application narrows or even disappears.

Going back to the initial focus of the thread and the quote by Sean Flynn above, it is often easy to put into practice the philosophy of harmony and love for our fellow person when they are also trying to maintain that harmony, especially in an artificial environment like the dojo. In the real world however, we tend to have to dig deeper to find that place where we can still maintain our "moral high ground" in the face of anger, resentment, disdain for our philosophy and beliefs and all out resistance to any sort of harmony or mutually beneficial exchange. In these cases the desire to "get dirty" and "hurt someone" may be strong. It is here that we see the level that our own training has reached, at the point where we are ready to abandon it for something that may appear to be easier or simply more ego gratifying. Whether the threat be physical or not, the philosophy/belief system (cause) is what determines the subsequent action (effect), which will determine whether we bash the person's brains in, control them with a technique or walk away.

Apologies for the length of the post all.

Hope this adds to the discussion.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 12-29-2003, 02:20 PM   #27
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
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Reza Kauzar (sanosuke) wrote:
I do still believe what Minoru Mochizuki said. "Too much karate will make you aggressive, too much judo will make you passive, too much aikido will make you arrogant."
Huh! Interesting.

Where'd you see/hear this quotation?

Thanks.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 12-29-2003, 07:00 PM   #28
sanosuke
Dojo: Seigi Dojo
Location: Jakarta
Join Date: Nov 2002
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Indonesia
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Quote:
Don J. Modesto (Don_Modesto) wrote:
Huh! Interesting.

Where'd you see/hear this quotation?

Thanks.
my sensei said it, and if i'm not mistaken Mr. Peter Rehse have heard about this too. That quote actually comes from an interview with Patrick Auge sensei, the full sentence comes like this;
Quote:
After judo practice, I was so drained physically and mentally that the only thing I wanted to do was eat and sleep. After karate practice, I felt washed out physically but aggressive mentally to the point that I had difficulty controlling my emotions, and would easily get involved in arguments. On the other hand, after aikido practice, I felt physically tired but comfortable. Mentally, I felt stimulated. I could have interesting conversations with other people; I could stay focused while writing or reading. One of my sempai (seniors) said once: "If you are not careful, judo will turn you into a stupid person, karate will turn you into a mean person and aikido will turn you into an arrogant person!"
no offence intended to all judoka, karateka, and aikidoka...
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Old 12-30-2003, 11:43 AM   #29
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
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Quote:
Reza Kauzar (sanosuke) wrote:
my sensei said it, and if i'm not mistaken Mr. Peter Rehse have heard about this too. That quote actually comes from an interview with Patrick Auge sensei, the full sentence comes like this;
Interesting!

Thanks for taking time to upload it.

Anecdotally, I've noticed this with the higher level students at the JKA and those at the Ueshiba Honbu. There's a whole difference in demeanor. (But then, there's a difference in demeanor between JKA and Wado players and Ueshiba Honbu and Yoshinkan Honbu, too.)

'One of my sempai (seniors) said once: "If you are not careful, judo will turn you into a stupid person, karate will turn you into a mean person and aikido will turn you into an arrogant person!"'

In Japan, the judobu in high schools are thought to have "warm hearts", a Jpn euphemism for "stupid person," perhaps. My experience at a Jpn high school showed the expected range of brights in the judo demographic. I don't know how the researchers operationalized "warm heart", but some empirical results seem to support it. Relating Pyecha's research, Kim Taylor writes

"When the first Judo class was compared to 8 weeks of badminton and 8 weeks of handball, the Judo class showed a different set of personality changes. Judo I was higher than the controls on factor A. The Judo students were more sociable, good natured, easygoing, cooperative, attentive, softhearted, kindly, trustful, adaptable and warmhearted. A lower score on factor A implies a personality more aggressive, grasping, critical, obstructive, cool, aloof, hard, precise, suspicious, rigid and cold." @ (http://www.uoguelph.ca/~kataylor/mapsy2.htm)

(I know I'm taking this beyond the intent of the quote, but I'm personally interested in seeing whether the MAs' pretty hifalutin' claims are born out when submitted to rigors greater than those necessary to produce a dojo flyer. For a superb summary of pertinent research, see Brad Binder, 1999 @ http://userpages.chorus.net/wrassoc/...s/psychsoc.htm . )

Last edited by Don_Modesto : 12-30-2003 at 11:48 AM.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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