Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-08-2003, 11:43 AM   #26
kensparrow
Dojo: Methuen Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 97
Offline
Just the process please, I'm already quite familiar with Aikido generated pain!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2003, 11:17 AM   #27
indomaresa
Dojo: Aiki Kenkyukai
Location: Indonesia
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 176
Offline
well, I'm not sure how to put it into words. But here's what I know;

( I had to go train once, to really feel the techniques )

It can be done from many attacks ( shomen, tsuki, katatetori, or ushiro tori ) I've been frozen to many embarassing poses.

example; When I raised my hand to do shomen. sensei enters with a light block, placing an open palm on the elbow. if you've done this before, you'll know that this will cause my shomen force to be repelled backward.

Before I fell back, sensei turns the open palm into a grab, and then pushed my straightened hand like a spear downward (at the uke's tanden-he says).

Voila! Greek Statue with shomen posture.

another example is from tsuki. tsuki - irimi - take hold of attack hand - push it back at uke's tanden

again, Greek statue doing tsuki.

it's amazing, and breathtaking (from the uke literally). I still can't figure out the logic from this technique.

and ken; this technique's pain is different from wrist locks or.. say tembinage. It comes from a sudden muscle clenching, very much like a cramp. I feel it mostly at the stomach.

hope this explanation is visual enough.

The road is long...
The path is steep...
So hire a guide to show you the shortcuts
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2003, 11:10 PM   #28
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 813
Malaysia
Offline
How long does this 'freezing' last? Sounds a lot like 'kunci' in gayung.

Anyway, been to watanabe's class. Didn't get to try anything on him though since he always took his regular students as uke. So I saw the no touch throws and i still have difficulty believing on its effectiveness.

Its basically uke avoiding a blow to the face and so he falls over. That of course is incredibly effective, but i bet all senseis can do that.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2003, 12:05 AM   #29
indomaresa
Dojo: Aiki Kenkyukai
Location: Indonesia
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 176
Offline
gayung? wazzat?. But I understand that "kunci" means lock. The term normally used during our practice is "locking the tanden"

depending on the uke's receptiveness, this can last a long time.

I personally only feel the effect as long as there's still physical contact. And then I can shrug it off and recover in 1-2 seconds.

Some of my fellow dojo member are extremely sensitive and can be freezed indefinitely, until someone pushes them, or until they fell on their own.

I'm not sure of this, but I think sometimes during intense jiyuwaza (freestyle techniques) everyone can cause this effect accidentally. We just didn't stop and enjoy the result, instead we finished the uke with a technique.

The road is long...
The path is steep...
So hire a guide to show you the shortcuts
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2003, 02:20 AM   #30
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 813
Malaysia
Offline
Gayung as in silat gayung.

But i still find what your sensei's done quite strange as i haven't seen anything like it in the mat so far... most of the really outstanding stuff done is like effortless throws on very very committed attacks. But freezing ppl, never.

Wheres your dojo and who is your sensei?

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2003, 03:36 AM   #31
indomaresa
Dojo: Aiki Kenkyukai
Location: Indonesia
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 176
Offline
Ahmad,

Silat Gayung? hmm.. never heard of it. You say it's similar to my descriptions? I'll check it out.

I'm from Aiki-Inyo-Kai Dojo, in Jakarta, Indonesia. My sensei's name is Imanul Hakim

Frankly I've never seen its like anywhere either, but as BKimpel mentioned earlier in this thread, this is probably an influence from Ki no Kenkyu Kai

Have you ever been to Indonesia?

The road is long...
The path is steep...
So hire a guide to show you the shortcuts
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2003, 11:42 PM   #32
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 813
Malaysia
Offline
Hakim sensei is your sensei? Oh i c. He's a good sensei, i like him a lot. Can't imagine anyone would call him abusive.

He's doing extra ki aikido now if i'm not mistaken. If i were you, i'd jump at the chance to practice that with him. I used to do ki aikido in UK, it was great stuff. Miss it very much. Thalib is your dojo mate too no?

I've been to indonesia but that was a long time ago, to medan in fact. Not when i was doing aikido. Met your sensei a couple of years back at the AAF in Singapore i think.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2003, 04:32 AM   #33
Thalib
 
Thalib's Avatar
Dojo: 合気研究会
Location: Jakarta Selatan
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 504
Indonesia
Offline
Yes, Abas-san... Maresa is fellow shodan.

When I have to die by the sword, I will do so with honor.
--------
http://funkybuddha.multiply.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2003, 06:16 AM   #34
indomaresa
Dojo: Aiki Kenkyukai
Location: Indonesia
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 176
Offline
right,

and he's not so much abusive as he is executing the technique whole-heartedly.

Which is why i'm often black and blue. And green sometimes. And purple sometimes. ^^

By the way, I've had an email from a kino kenkyu kai practitioner and the person admits no knowledge of such techniques.

So back to square one.

---------------------------------------

"the journey is long, the path is steep

....so hire a guide to show you a shortcut"

The road is long...
The path is steep...
So hire a guide to show you the shortcuts
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2003, 01:20 AM   #35
sanosuke
Dojo: Seigi Dojo
Location: Jakarta
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 247
Indonesia
Offline
Quote:
But i still find what your sensei's done quite strange as i haven't seen anything like it in the mat so far... most of the really outstanding stuff done is like effortless throws on very very committed attacks. But freezing ppl, never.
imagine techniques similar to those shown by Al-Maunah, Abas. But of course we don't hijack an army weapon depot and do any radical stuff
Quote:
"the journey is long, the path is steep....so hire a guide to show you a shortcut"
I like this, its so......aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2003, 01:55 AM   #36
Dwang
Location: USA
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 2
Offline
Hi Maresa,

I know the "state" that you described in your previous thread, I have experienced it before too form a sensei during my visit to a dojo.

At first I didn't believe it when I saw how easily everyone in the dojo just fell ito that position, then I also experienced it myself.

But from my experience when this "aiki-nage" (I'am at lost at how to call the move...it's not kokyu nage even though many moves are kokyu nage)was performed to me once or twice during my training with the sensei, it did not work that smoothly.

The sensei managed to "make a greek statue" out of me easily when I was practicing suwari waza kokyu-ho with him. Then after practicing for a little more time with him, he seems to be able to control me easier and I fell into that state for quite a few time.

When I was in that state I was could not breathe for a while until he slap me in my shoulder. I felt like I can't move my arm or any part of my body.

I read some of the posts from the previous page and I kinda disagree with the psychological theory some mentioned before. It was more like that my mind cannot control my body and regain my balance.

I personally think that this is some kind of ogi or secret techniques. I read many books by Osensei and Doshu Ueshiba, even by Sensei Gozo Shioda...and it was not mentioned in any of them.

I found this webpage that have some interesting excerpt by a Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu learner and probably this can provide some insight for you Maresa.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/art...?ArticleID=183

Sincerely,

David Wang

If you seek mastery of the sword, seek first sincerety of the heart, for the former is but the reflection of the latter.
-Iwakura Yoshinori, of Yagyu-ryu
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2003, 06:55 AM   #37
indomaresa
Dojo: Aiki Kenkyukai
Location: Indonesia
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 176
Offline
greetings, dwang

i'm glad SOMEONE beside my fellow students has seen it as well, makes discussing it here much easier.

can't argue about the ogi thing, it's definitely a hidden technique. We are calling it...(drum roll) 'aiki techniques', for lack of a better name.

just read your article, and.. my god, it just described my situation 100% accurately, even down to the amazement and the part when he realized the principles. But that brought out another question - Is this a Daito-Ryu technique? Or can all Aiki-related martial art stumble upon it?

It's also true the fact that the more often you experienced the technique from someone, the more susceptible you are to the effects.

btw dwang, which dojo did you visit?

sincerely

maresa

Last edited by indomaresa : 11-12-2003 at 06:59 AM.

The road is long...
The path is steep...
So hire a guide to show you the shortcuts
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2003, 08:00 AM   #38
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 813
Malaysia
Offline
I've read about the aforementioned 'hiden' techniques. its the last thing to be taught to a deshi who has passed chuden and shoden.

my dojo makes no mention of this, most probably because we don't come from some austere ryu with centuries old tradition of father to son.

would really really love to train with you guys.

almaunah reza? no idea what techniques those guys use... maybe some silat or rather.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2003, 07:48 PM   #39
sanosuke
Dojo: Seigi Dojo
Location: Jakarta
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 247
Indonesia
Offline
i've read somewhere that in daito-ryu, one can experience having this kind of 'invisible power/aura' after long years of training and relaxation. I've also read that sokaku takeda was famous in his mastery of 'aiki', i think he also had this kind of power, judging from the story of him made a demo throwing several people while his hand is tied up and he sat in seiza, not moving at all. Aikido, however, does not seem to adopt this method in developing such 'invisible power' for the reason i don't know, unless senseis like watanabe sensei.
Quote:
almaunah reza? no idea what techniques those guys use... maybe some silat or rather.
nonononono..not silat abas, but rather they train to develop their 'inner power' and the techniques is like throwing people from a distance and such. These kind of practice is also common here in Indonesia, but unfortunately some of them earned this power from mistics or some other hocus-pocus that i don't know about.

Last edited by sanosuke : 11-12-2003 at 07:56 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2003, 11:37 PM   #40
Dwang
Location: USA
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 2
Offline
Hi Maresa,

Well, I went to Japan for some training trip for couple of weeks in several places, and that was the time I met this sensei who could perform this technique. I forgot where the place exactly at since its a few years back.

I don't normally train in stuff like that, in fact the Aikido that I learned is pretty much Steven Seagal-type of Aikido, a bit hard, and lotsa emphasize on application techniques. Some even might say it's closer to Hapkido + Judo than Aikido.

I'm not sure how to answer you question on whether this technique is only known in Daito-ryu or also in Aikido. But I also understand that Osensei studied Daito-ryu before, even Grandmaster Sokaku Takeda gave him the highest certification on mastery in Daito-ryu and acknowledged him as a prodigy (even though Osensei was 32 years old at the time he finished studying under GM Takeda).

So, there's a probability that Osensei also learned and knew it form Daito-ryu. I should be careful in saying this for I knew from the past that there are some ppl really felt disturb to relate Aikido and Daito-ryu.

I would say that any schools that really know the concept of ki, ai-ki and the cultivation of mind and body in ki could also perform this (this was the teaching of the sensei that perform the "aiki-technique"). For aikido and Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu are like brothers only different in religion, the former heavily emphasizes on the values of harmony and the other on pure self-defense in conflict resolution. Therefore it would not be strange to know that they both have some similar characteristic.

IMHO I don't think this technique is the same as the technique in Silat, or Kanuragan, or Chi-Gong, or Inner Power (I knew some of this stuff…since I met some of the ppl that teaches this type of martial arts). Their description and teaching on what the "invisible" forces that could cause ppl trip over, subjugated without any physical contact just doesn't match the definition of Ki and Ai-ki either in Daito-ryu nor Osensei teaching. Due to my past experience in studying those types of techniques, I have become a really hardcore skeptic in believing them.

If you seek mastery of the sword, seek first sincerety of the heart, for the former is but the reflection of the latter.
-Iwakura Yoshinori, of Yagyu-ryu
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2003, 03:13 AM   #41
indomaresa
Dojo: Aiki Kenkyukai
Location: Indonesia
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 176
Offline
thx for the daito-ryu input dwang,

sorry for the late reply

i've recently watched hiroshi ikeda's seminar videos, mitsugi saotome shihan's videos and mary heiny sensei's videos.

There's a major similarities between their demonstration of "musubi" and what I'm currently learning. It's just that the shihan's are still teaching in context of their techniques.

From what I've seen on the videos, I'm pretty sure the mentioned senseis CAN execute aiki techniques.

There's even one scene where saotome sensei freezes the uke temporarily, holding him between "kuzushi" and not.

So in the end, I guess it all boils down to how strict you adhere to the forms.

The road is long...
The path is steep...
So hire a guide to show you the shortcuts
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido of Northern VA Seminars - Doran-sensei in Northern Virginia, March 2015



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Self-defense art? Michael Varin General 227 08-21-2012 10:22 AM
Mixing Aikido with other martial arts Guilty Spark General 146 05-04-2008 11:10 AM
Article: Did Morihei Ueshiba Invent Aikido? by Peter Boylan AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 39 03-06-2008 09:27 AM
Dilution of aikido eugene_lo General 40 02-07-2006 12:22 PM
Two things. Veers General 8 04-04-2003 02:54 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:06 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate