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Old 01-04-2001, 07:46 PM   #1
Gray Fox
Dojo: Formerly Sang Lee's
Location: NY
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 9
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Alright, I didn't know exactly where to stick this one, so, excuse me if this is out of place. I just wanted the chance to share my beliefs with you people and get your opinions(basically I want to verify that i'm not completely insane). Also, I wanted to see if one (or many) of you can improve on my thought. Call it selfish if you want, I call it...selfis. Anyway, let's get to the good stuff. Over the years I have taught myself many things. Now, this may seem odd, but I have taught myself to tolerate quit a bit of pain, like, broken-bone kind of pain. Now, I did this by asking myself one night when I was younger(when I was a wuss), "why do we have to feel pain". Well, after finding no acceptable answer, I asked "so why am I still doing it". Well, as you may know, there isn't any point in doing something that is not needed, so, I tried to stop. It never worked, so I stopped trying, stopped thinking about it. Anyway, the next year, I broke my bone in a gym class, ouch, right? Wrong. I found that I had taught myself not to feel certain types of pain. How, stopped thinking. If you truly believe that you can't feel pain, and stop thinking of everything you were ever told, you won't feel pain. That was my discovery. Now do you see why i'm concerned about my sanity? Well, good. Anyway, this has been my way of thinking ever since. If you want to fly, then spread your wings and jump, and don't stop jumping. Impossible? Humans have no wings, ou say? I say they do, I may be insane, but maybe in a few years I might be the only flying human. so maybe that was a bit extreme, but, give me your criticism, i want to argue.

-Benjamin Ward
The world breathes
And out forms this misconception we call man
But I don't know him
No, I don't know him
Because he lies, Say I
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Old 01-05-2001, 01:15 AM   #2
shadow
Dojo: Aiki Kun Ren (Iwama style)
Location: Sydney
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 166
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this has been my way of thinking for a while......I tried to talk about it on previous posts but these ignorant louts (joke) wouldn't accept what I was trying to say.
Whilst I haven't managed to have a strong enough mind to get rid of pain or anything else....I think, for lack of better words, that's the way things work. I'm considering that enlightenment is the realisation that everything is just our mind.......our whole existance is illusion and once our mind is free from such attachments, then we can be enlightened.

I dunno....just rambling

happiness. harmony. compassion.
--damien--
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Old 01-05-2001, 07:04 AM   #3
PRapoza
Dojo: Cape Cod Aikido Kenkyukai 541 Thomas Landers Rd., East Falmouth
Location: Cape Cod, MA
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 30
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Sounds like you two watched the "Matrix" one too many times.
____________
Paul
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Old 01-05-2001, 09:49 AM   #4
Aikidoka2000
Dojo: SEIDOKAN
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 59
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As for me,
I regard pain as a good thing. It tells me when something is wrong, and I should tend to it. I think that's all part of the human condition.
-Tomu

-When two blades cross points,
There's no need to withdraw.
The master swordsman
Is like the lotus blooming in the fire.
Such a person has inside of them
A heaven soaring spirit.
- Tozan Ryokan
4th verse on the 5 ranks
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Old 01-05-2001, 02:45 PM   #5
Brian
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 44
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Quote:
Gray Fox wrote:
I found that I had taught myself not to feel certain types of pain. How, stopped thinking. If you truly believe that you can't feel pain, and stop thinking of everything you were ever told, you won't feel pain.
Did you feel any sensation at all? What I'm wondering is, do you still feel the sensation and it doesn't bother you, or do you feel absolutely nothing at all?

I have discovered that it is possible to enter a certain frame of mind wherein you are still aware of the pain, but it doesn't bother you as before. Suddenly slipping back into your 'normal' mindset, however, results in feeling the 'initial' pain all over again. I achieved this once when, strangely enough, I was applying Caladryl to a rash on my arm. After wincing several times, I finally regulated my breathing and tried my utmost to put the pain out of my mind. Maintaining the mindset took a great amount of effort, but I was able to ignore the pain. I was still vaguely aware of it, but it didn't seem like I was the one feeling it, but like I was aware of someone else feeling it. Then I let my concentration break, and I was in loads of stinging pain once more. It's a very useful trick for those many occasions when I'm showering and someone decides it would be funny to flush the toilet...
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Old 01-05-2001, 03:59 PM   #6
Gray Fox
Dojo: Formerly Sang Lee's
Location: NY
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 9
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I agree with you completely Shadow. I think that a human, once he/she learns how, can control any aspect of the human mind/body, but that is just the beginning of it. Again, if we ever become "enlightened" enough, we shall walk the earth, fearing nothing, because we know nothing can harm us. And we shall be able to live with ease. And to tell the truth(this may diminish your belief in my insanity[if you had any in the first place], I don't think too highly of "science". All I believe this to be is a bunch of bs "facts" supported by nothing, or rather, things we discovered ourselves(and remember,I believe we have the power to make things what we believe it to be). Maybe, this began with the very first man, picking up a stone and believing it was hard, all the other humans saw this and believed what the man told them, thus, rocks became hard. To answer your question Brian, i only felt my bones move, then I got right back up and finished the entire class before realizing my arm wasn't moving too well. And Rapoza, I was thinking this way long before Matrix was realesed.

There is no spoon.

[Edited by Gray Fox on January 8, 2001 at 05:45pm]

-Benjamin Ward
The world breathes
And out forms this misconception we call man
But I don't know him
No, I don't know him
Because he lies, Say I
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Old 01-05-2001, 04:39 PM   #7
BC
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 432
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Gray Fox:

It is forum rules that all participants provide their real names with each post. The best way to do this is to place is in your signature. Please compy. Thanks.


Robert Cronin
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Old 01-05-2001, 05:07 PM   #8
Aikidoka2000
Dojo: SEIDOKAN
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 59
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I think we've all got a long way to go before we "walk the earth and fear nothing".
None of ushave it quite "together" yet.
The proof of this is simple enough. If you could maximize the full potential available in the human mind (as the cliche goes)
Then why would anyone want to stick around earth?
I certainly wouldn't.
I suppose when all is said an done, of what benefit is it that one does not feel pain? Or rather controls pain?
I suppose it may help in an emergency situation, but I also note that the same nerves that control pain also control pleasure. This can perhaps also have an emotional equivalent. Some people are so good at blocking pain (perhaps as a survival response)
-Tomu

-When two blades cross points,
There's no need to withdraw.
The master swordsman
Is like the lotus blooming in the fire.
Such a person has inside of them
A heaven soaring spirit.
- Tozan Ryokan
4th verse on the 5 ranks
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Old 01-05-2001, 05:44 PM   #9
Gray Fox
Dojo: Formerly Sang Lee's
Location: NY
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 9
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Smile

Hehe, you know what I ment. Oops, I forgot about the name thing, sorry.

-Benjamin Ward
The world breathes
And out forms this misconception we call man
But I don't know him
No, I don't know him
Because he lies, Say I
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Old 01-05-2001, 05:57 PM   #10
Gray Fox
Dojo: Formerly Sang Lee's
Location: NY
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 9
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Oh geez, I forgot to reply to what you said. Well, think of it, do you enjoy feeling those annoying little pains? Also, I don't believe I've lost any other feelings except those certain types of pains. Anyway, I'll try to stop talking now.

[Edited by Gray Fox on January 8, 2001 at 05:43pm]

-Benjamin Ward
The world breathes
And out forms this misconception we call man
But I don't know him
No, I don't know him
Because he lies, Say I
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Old 01-05-2001, 09:17 PM   #11
shadow
Dojo: Aiki Kun Ren (Iwama style)
Location: Sydney
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 166
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Quote:
Gray Fox wrote:
I agree with you completely Shadow. I think that a human, once he/she learns how, can control any aspect of the human mind/body, but that is just the beginning of it. Again, if we ever become "enlightened" enough, we shall walk the earth, fearing nothing, because we know nothing can harm us. And we shall be able to live ease. And to tell the truth(this may diminish your belief in my insanity[if you had any in the first place], I don't think too highly of "science". All I believe this to be is a bunch of bs "facts" supported by nothing, or rather, things we discovered ourselves(and remember,I believe we have the power to make things what we believe it to be). Maybe, this began with the very first man, picking up a stone and saying believing it was hard, all the other humans saw this, thus, rocks became hard.

Well I beleive in science, science happens....but I'm not certain it's really as "scientific" as we think it is. It's all phenomonen and as I also mentioned before......the forces that power nature, electricity, science, etc can be harnassed by yourself....ie you can become in tune with ....the universe. I think that maybe the right motivation is needed though....walking the earth fearing nothing, but not be the right motivation. I'm not sure.

happiness. harmony. compassion.
--damien--
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Old 01-07-2001, 02:17 AM   #12
Matt
Dojo: N/A
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 16
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Quick story:
I was in a fight in high school once where I got kicked in the croch so hard I was leaking blood but I was so mad at the time I didnt notice till later. Boy oh boy did I notice later.
Matt

"It is better to die on your feet
than to live a lifetime on your knees"
Emiliano Zapata
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Old 01-07-2001, 12:18 PM   #13
Do1
Location: UK
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 3
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Talking

Har-har! I have no idea what I'm doing in here but hey - it's a forum!! hmmmm, me
I have a question for people who do Shotokan Karate...is it difficult doing both Aikido and Shotokan K at the same time? I was in the dojo recently and I grunted very loudly when I shouldn't have and I said "Oss" which we don't do in Aikido for some reason... oh dear! hee hee hardi har har. we live and learn.

Peace and love, May all your weeds be wild flowers, Donna<3xxx


"I see", said the blind man to the deaf man xxx(E.McHale)
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Old 01-07-2001, 05:17 PM   #14
Chocolateuke
Dojo: Muhu Dojo
Location: Middle of nowhere in California 14 miles from Buellton
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 238
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Cool

hi I have been gone for awhile I was just reading about your "not thinking of pain thing.." (sorry if that is a bad way to put it.) anyhow once I had a moterbike crash and my need had 2 huge holes by the cap. I felt no pain because I was in shock. but the moment the docter put the needle to close the wound the pain keeped on comming. anyhow, I belive that you can stop feeling pain by thinking about it. The reasons are that: 1) your mind is a very powerful tool and can bend spoons like in the matrix! also a great yoga once said " if you stop thinking for 3 seconds you can see heavens kindom." 2) my other reason is when I bang my head or get a "small injury" I just stop thinking about the pain and ingore it and I feel 60% better already!

on the other hand there are stories of people flying already in Asia sorry grey!


"When the hand the heart and the mind are in the perfect harmony mericals ( great things) can be preformed" Andria the witch

after this post I will change my user name!
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Old 01-07-2001, 05:28 PM   #15
Gray Fox
Dojo: Formerly Sang Lee's
Location: NY
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 9
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Smile

Okay, okay, so people can already fly, but, hopefully I will be the first with pretty wings.

-Benjamin Ward
The world breathes
And out forms this misconception we call man
But I don't know him
No, I don't know him
Because he lies, Say I
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Old 01-08-2001, 12:47 PM   #16
REK
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 102
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Quote:
Do1 wrote:
I have a question for people who do Shotokan Karate...is it difficult doing both Aikido and Shotokan K at the same time? I was in the dojo recently and I grunted very loudly when I shouldn't have and I said "Oss"
I did have some bad habits to unlearn, but they were mine, not Shotokan's. As for your "grunt", let'em wonder....

Rob

________________________
Mors certa, hora incerta
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Old 01-08-2001, 03:27 PM   #17
Aikilove
Dojo: Lunds Aikidoklubb
Location: Lund, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 272
Sweden
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Quote:
Gray Fox wrote:
Anyway, the next year, I broke my bone in a gym class, ouch, right? Wrong. I found that I had taught myself not to feel certain types of pain. How, stopped thinking
Hi Gray Fox and all the rest as well! I'm going to destroy the fun and say that 1. Most people that break a bone (or two) don't feel the pain because the adrenaline and a hole lot more hormones and nervsignalblockings litterally takes the pain away, for a moment. Then the pain comes back and more hormones etc. come and make the pain go away. This happens in waves and only in cases were the pain is "unbearable". This I "know" because I'm a biochemist. 2. So are you sure that it was your mind that made all your pain go away?

I have to say that I actually believe that you can make pain/discomfort go away by just don't think about it or think really really hard on something else. I know because a good friend of mine did it when he was whipped by his father in his youth. He told me that his trick was to focus all his energy and mind to a imaginary spot of light far away. Sometime he focused so hard that when he finally opened his eyes again it had gone almost an hour and he hadn't even realized when his father had stopped. He had in other words put himself in some kind of trans. And belive me this boy ferfected this skill, He had to. So sure I do belive in that.

Jakob B

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 01-08-2001, 03:53 PM   #18
Gray Fox
Dojo: Formerly Sang Lee's
Location: NY
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Ok, you mentioned adrenaline and hormones. This may be true, however, I was not excited or even concerned. All that went through my mind was that I tripped and fell. I got back up and continued to do the exercises. This is also only one example. At school over the years I have been hit many times and my only response was "Hey, that's my shoulder", etc., and then a laugh. I've also noticed since I did this that I have been able to run longer distances,and put more effort into activities because pain was not diminishing my stamina.

P.s. It was my second broken bone in almost the same place, except on the other hand(I have a tendancy to try and catch myself while falling, usually it results in an injury). Anyway, it was about a year and a half earlier and it hurt pretty badly.

[Edited by Gray Fox on January 8, 2001 at 05:50pm]

-Benjamin Ward
The world breathes
And out forms this misconception we call man
But I don't know him
No, I don't know him
Because he lies, Say I
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Old 01-08-2001, 04:03 PM   #19
PRapoza
Dojo: Cape Cod Aikido Kenkyukai 541 Thomas Landers Rd., East Falmouth
Location: Cape Cod, MA
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 30
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Aikilove,
Actually what your friend did is called "Dissociation". Briefly it's when a person takes experiences that are so horrible and overwhelming that they would destroy a person and they seperate and lock them away inside themselves. If these experiences are not dealt with later they start to fester and manifest in many different ways. I have some friends with dissociative disorder. It is frighteningly common.
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Old 01-09-2001, 06:21 PM   #20
Catherine
Dojo: IAA headquarters
Location: Texas
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 11
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Gray Fox- Just a not, but adrenaline and hormones, while contributing to excitement and emotional state, are still just chemicals (etc) in your body. They contribute to a whole lot more than simply what you would normally think about. Many times your body puts just a single area of itself into what we would call "shock" if the whole self went into it.

I'm not meaning to say that your mindset has nothing to do with this though, because (from my experience) I beleive that you can learn not to let pain bother you. I still feel it, but I know what is just "ouch, you stepped on my toe" and "ouch, I hurt my ankle." Pain is good- it tells you what areas of your body need help. Don't completely ignore it.

Catherine
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Old 02-03-2001, 12:59 PM   #21
Kurt
Dojo: Shizendo Aikido of Derby
Location: USA
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 6
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I don't believe that we can stop pain from being there, but we CAN control our reaction to it. Pain is only bad if we label it as such. Pain is good if we label it as such.

I do several things when pain comes.
First, I accept it. Rather than the questions like "why me?" or statements like, "make it stop." Then I make friends with it. And then I try to determine the source. Is the pain actually in my body part or is it in my mind?

Kurt

Never underestimate your oponent!
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Old 02-05-2001, 08:44 AM   #22
Sam
Dojo: Kyogikan Sheffield
Location: UK
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 90
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Sometimes, when my instructor puts a pin on me, it is like getting an electric shock, the pain is so suddenly there and then gone without a trace that it almost makes you giggle.
In aikido there is supposed to be no lasting pain. I hope nobody has had to experience lasting pain from training.
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Old 02-06-2001, 05:34 PM   #23
Gray Fox
Dojo: Formerly Sang Lee's
Location: NY
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 9
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Hehehe

Dont you get it? You are explaining with science. Science is a man's excuse for not having faith in his thoughts. Atleast, thats what I believe...and whatever you believe, is real. So, if I believe the universe was created by God, it was. If you believe it was formed from a seed, it was. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder": I say it's beautifil, you say it's ugly, it's beautiful and ugly. You believe in science, I believe in human thoughts, they are both correct. Hehe, see, that's the beauty of my way of thinking, it supports itself and supports other ways of thinking at the same time. In short, I am possitive I eliminated my own pain to an extent, I am right; yet, you believe it is hormones or I simply took myself to a different place in my mind, away from the pain, you are right according to my way of thinking. So, thanks for playing.(besides, you guys were getting way too far into the topic of pain, it was only an example, I wanted thoughts on the beliefs themselves)

[Edited by Gray Fox on February 6, 2001 at 04:42pm]

-Benjamin Ward
The world breathes
And out forms this misconception we call man
But I don't know him
No, I don't know him
Because he lies, Say I
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