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Old 10-27-2003, 03:31 AM   #1
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
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Near or far?

When I first started aikido, all throws were essentially large projections with you trying to clear uke from your personal space as far as possible (based on the type of attack). For the last seven or eight years, my association (different style from original) has been going more for the "kicking distance" landing for uke (at or near feet).

Initially, I was sceptical for this, but it has proved useful in randori. However, I still sometimes long for the beautiful flying throws, so I thought I'd ask for preferences on where you place uke.

Now the throws are just that, throws, no further immobilisation intended, just the quick and dirty "down shep" ones - so, how do you like your uke? Feet or further?

[insert badly translated smug admonishment here]
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Old 10-27-2003, 04:22 AM   #2
JJF
 
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hmmmm... as far as I know the length of the throw depends almost entirely upon the amount of power and speed in uke's attack. A heavy slow uke = short throw, a light and very eager uke = long throw.

- Jørgen Jakob Friis

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Old 10-27-2003, 05:01 AM   #3
happysod
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Jørgen, have to disagree with you here - yes, these factors are important, but you can still choose your "spot on the mat" and change the trajectory of your uke and even the ease of their breakfall.

Ok, just assume you have the choice (perfect world syndrome) where would you prefer them put?

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Old 10-27-2003, 07:01 AM   #4
markwalsh
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For:

Control - short

Fun - long (this applies to other things too)

Damage - How far down, not across.

Mark

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Old 10-27-2003, 07:06 AM   #5
bluwing27
 
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I went through this dilemma myself a while back and decided that it depends on a lot of factors. For me personally those are:

1. The technique - some techniques lend themselves to large projections such as kaiten nage where uke has to make a long low forward ukemi most of the time unless you keep a hold of their head of course and some techniques lend themselves to short take downs such as irimi nage or aikiotoshi/kiri otoshi/sumi otoshi.

2. Your uke - how far your partner goes depends an awful lot on your partners ukemi ability.

3. The situation - in one on one randori its more often than not helpful to distance yourself from uke after technique so large throws can be really useful although not exclusivley. In randori against more than one attacker it may be more useful to execute a short throw so you can use the heap on the floor (the uke that has just been thrown ) as a shield against further attacks or execute a long throw to facilitate throwing your uke into the secondary attacker (much like bowling )

Hope that makes some sense!

And by the way my personal preference is short throws because i like to know exactly where my uke is what they are doing. I also feel that short throws are more realistic in that if they were performed on someone in a 'realistic on the street' situation then the uninitiated in the ways of ukemi would generally land in a heap at your feet.....not fly through the air like we do on the mat.

Chris

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Old 10-27-2003, 08:32 AM   #6
tedehara
 
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Have to agree with Jørgen. It's up to the uke to decide where to fall. It's up to the nage to "help" them there.

When you're throwing, you always throw straight down. Since the uke is attacking, they're adding a horizontal vector to the technique. Since we know from Physics 101 that a horizontal (across) and vertical (down) vectors will add up into an angular vector (towards the ground) it may look like people are throwing out. Actually, for the nage, the throw is simply straight down.

When you throw down in most zempo kokyu-nages, you also need to throw in front of the uke. A common mistake is to throw to the side of the uke and you actually help stabilize the uke.

That's what people been telling me and it seems to work.

Last edited by tedehara : 10-27-2003 at 08:40 AM.

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Old 10-27-2003, 11:35 AM   #7
happysod
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Ted, I can understand you and Jørgen's point of view somewhat, but if my uke could always dictate where they landed, I would consider myself to be doing something wrong. Yes, the attack will set most of the boundary limits to horizontal distance when thrown, assuming you add nothing to the equation, but within those limits, you should have a choice of placement - that's why I moved to the "ideal world" option. Oh yes, disagree with your 101 physics example - a simple turn by nage will add a new horizontal vector (and possibly even a small vertical component prior to the final compression).

Christopher, we're in general agreement, but I still have this small nag with the "short" placement as you may have a still wriggling uke in your danger zone who can cause problems - especially in randori.

Mark, like to add a caveat...

down = damage except when there's something to throw them into (e.g. wall) then there's choice.

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Old 10-27-2003, 12:01 PM   #8
Brehan Crawford
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Being a beginner, I'm still trying to get all the way through the technique without stopping, and then I focus on not falling on top of uke myself
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Old 10-27-2003, 03:33 PM   #9
wendyrowe
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I'm with Chris, it depends on many things. Long throws are more fun, though, for me as uke as well as when I'm nage.

I don't believe distance all depends on uke, though.

In our dojo, we do some judo-style throws that put uke down close to our feet, gently -- for instance, when my Sensei demonstrated koshinage yesterday, his uke landed gracefully and close -- no way could uke have been launched across the room the way Sensei did that throw.

We also do throws where there's no way uke could land close, since he's got so much momentum from his movement and nage's redirection.

I'd say if you have a skilled nage, he's got the most influence on whether uke lands near or far.
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Old 10-28-2003, 06:16 AM   #10
Nick Simpson
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In randori with multiple attackers it always seems a good option to me to try and keep an uke close. Throwing them in front of you while another uke tries to attack from that direction thereby obstructing them. Although It is much more fun to watch people fly away after your techniques but unless your really good Id say thats more upto your uke.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 10-28-2003, 06:35 AM   #11
bluwing27
 
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Some good points being made in here
Quote:
Christopher, we're in general agreement, but I still have this small nag with the "short" placement as you may have a still wriggling uke in your danger zone who can cause problems - especially in randori.
For short 'straight down' throws I think it is important to remember that there should still be control of the partner when they hit the floor, whether it be control of an arm or some kind of regular technique or even a gentle knee placed on the ribs

The point is that even though the throw is short and uke lands at your feet you yourself are not just gonna stand there and let uke counter attack. You are either gonna control him/her somehow or you are gonna move away (possibly onto the next attacker or into a position to place the one on the floor inbetween yourself and the 2nd attacker)

Also about damage, although we all know that this should really never occur on purpose right?

But in any case ive experienced that a forward roll becomes much more dangerous, and therefore potentially damaging, the closer uke's head is to the floor before the 'flip' point in a mae ukemi. The closer the head to the floor the more chance of nasty shoulder, neck and head injuries which are probably the most dangerous parts of someone to damage.

Stay safe

Chris

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Old 10-28-2003, 09:03 AM   #12
happysod
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Thanks for the replies all, looks like it's fun for long and short for practical yes? Agreed, as I say, just a yearning for those beautiful flying throws of yesteryear...

Chris, "The point is that even though the throw is short and uke lands at your feet you yourself are not just gonna stand there and let uke counter attack" - agree on this, but it still assumes your uke is relatively helpless for a sufficient period. I was well and truely caught out one time by a rather athletic judoka who managed an amazing 3' back wriggle (sorry, don't know how else to describe it) to snag my hakoma (another reason to hate the damn things). Things went rapidly downhill from there...

Now, I'll happily admit that I took my eye off the ball here as he was flat on his back, never even attempted to get up, so I discounted him in favour of my next attacker. However, even though I am convinced concerning the short-long for general effectiveness, the long throw did have the benefit of a geater "safety margin" in this respect.

As re your damage query - I was actually responding to Mark, but if you're referring to "in the dojo", I'm in total agreement. Outside? No.

I must check what you said about height of head, sounds interesting. Doesn't your posture ever become slightly bent if you're trying for a low head throw?

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