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Old 09-12-2003, 01:09 AM   #1
Kieun
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 24
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aikido and bagua

Hi,

Has anyone ever studied the arts of aikido and the Chinese art of baguazhang? If you have, I was wondering if I may ask the following:

1. have you found the two to complement or oppose each other in training? If so, how or why?

2. if you have found them to complement, have you found that the aikido helps in the bagua more, or has the bagua training helped in the aikido more (I'm certain different people will have had different reactions so that I what I'd like to hear)

Thank you.
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Old 09-12-2003, 06:54 AM   #2
Ghost Fox
Dojo: Jikishinkan Dojo
Location: New York City (Brooklyn)
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 219
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From my small exposure to Pa-Kua, it seems that it is similar to Aikido in that it is an internal art, and have concepts for dealing with multiple attackers. The big difference I see is that Pa-Kua practioner principles are based on walking the circle, while Aikidoka principles are based on being the center of the circle.

Before I started Aikido it was a very hard decision between Aikido and the internal Chinese martial art path (Hsing -> Pa-Kua -> Tai Chi Chuan). And of cource Ninjitsu, because everyone wants to be a ninja.
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Old 09-12-2003, 10:08 AM   #3
TheFallGuy
Dojo: Jyushinkan - Logan, Utah
Location: Logan, Utah
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 39
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I've done some reading on Pa Kua (BaGua). It is an internal chinese art which looks very beautiful. To me it seems very similar to Aikido in the movements. Moving while being centered. Circular movements, along with linear movements.

Pa Kua integrates both hard and soft techniques in order to resolve conflict. An example that I've seen is that when someone comes in with a hard attack, you counter with a soft.

I don't know too much about it, but I'd like to study it sometime.

I came
I caused
I seized
----Chaos
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Old 09-15-2003, 09:52 PM   #4
jk
Location: Indonesia
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 245
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Quote:
Damion Lost (Ghost Fox) wrote:
Before I started Aikido it was a very hard decision between Aikido and the internal Chinese martial art path (Hsing -> Pa-Kua -> Tai Chi Chuan).
Interesting...what made you pick aikido over the Chinese internal martial art trio? Sometimes I get a hankering to go to Taiwan and take up Hsing-I/Pa-Kua (as well as visit Mike Lee for some verbal abuse)...

Regards,
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Old 09-16-2003, 12:42 AM   #5
JJF
 
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Dojo: Vestfyn Aikikai Denmark
Location: Vissenbjerg
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Denmark
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Could anyone please explain what you mean by an 'internal' martial art ? I might have an idea what you mean, but I would apreciate a more precise definition.

- Jørgen Jakob Friis

Inspiration - Aspiration - Perspiration
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Old 09-16-2003, 06:10 AM   #6
Ghost Fox
Dojo: Jikishinkan Dojo
Location: New York City (Brooklyn)
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Quote:
John Kuo (jk) wrote:
Interesting...what made you pick aikido over the Chinese internal martial art trio? Sometimes I get a hankering to go to Taiwan and take up Hsing-I/Pa-Kua (as well as visit Mike Lee for some verbal abuse)...

Regards,
It was a very tough choice. I really enjoy the Taoist aspect of the Chinese internal arts. Also, (IMHO) the Chinese art are a lot more colorful than the Japanese conterparts. I think in the end it came down to the fact that I had practiced Aikijitsu and Karate when I was younger which made a little easier to pick-up Aikido. If I had been a complete novice I might be practicing Pa Kua by now.

I still find myself reading books on Tai Chi Chuan and Chinese Alchemy being that the Chinese have a few centuries head start over the Japanese when it comes to Ki (Qi). For me the esoteric sciences are very important, and highly undervalued in Aikido.

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Old 09-16-2003, 06:20 AM   #7
Ghost Fox
Dojo: Jikishinkan Dojo
Location: New York City (Brooklyn)
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Quote:
Jørgen Jakob Friis (JJF) wrote:
Could anyone please explain what you mean by an 'internal' martial art ? I might have an idea what you mean, but I would apreciate a more precise definition.
First, let me start off with that all martial arts have a aspect of ki development and kokyu (There that should get the nit-pickers of my back)

For me internal martial arts place a strong emphasis on the esoteric sciences, ki development and breath control. Usually they de-emphasize physical strength in favor of the development of circular power and grace. The movements tend to be more circular and fluid as oppose to linear and crisp.

IMO, to be honest it is how we are taught and approach an art that makes it internal vs. external. It is just that some arts have a tradition of being more conerned with the internal principles.

Peace and Blessings.

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Old 09-16-2003, 11:08 AM   #8
j0nharris
Dojo: Kododan Aikido USA
Location: Radford Virginia
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 200
United_States
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Tetsutaka Sugawara Sensei says that before his death, O'Sensei wished he had a made a better connection to the chinese arts, and that he wanted Sugawara to do that.

Sugawara Sensei has traveled to China quite a few times, and has incorporated tai chi, and, I believe, Ba Gua, into his techniques.

A friend was at a seminar of his last year, and said that Sensei jokingly called his styled Taichido

Having done Aikido for almost 9 years, and tai chi (both for health and martial arts) for about 5 years, I'd definitely say there is a connection.

Ba Gua, Tai Chi, and Aikido all stress the use of center (often referred to as "waist" in translated Chinese works) instead of muscle to move an opponent, and many of the techniques are similar, and certainly the idea of doing it slowly and correctly being more important than fast and wrong is present in both!

I must admit, though, to accidentally dumping a couple of folks pretty hard when my atemi flowed into tai chi technique, & I transferred more energy than I meant to. After it happened I went to my tai chi instructor, and we began working on that type of control a little more.

As a martial art, Ba Gua is generally considered the higher form of the chinese internal arts, & would, I believe, be a wonderful complement to Aikido. Provided, of course, that the instructor is competent, genuine, & compassionate.

-jon

jon harris

Life is a journey...
Now, who took my @#$%! map?!
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Old 09-16-2003, 05:16 PM   #9
Lan Powers
Dojo: Aikido of Midland, Midland TX
Location: Midland Tx
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I had a dear friend, now sadly deceased, who was a practitioner of Pa Kua. Got to spar with him some in a very limited, light- contact context. Whew! I am not sure whether it was just his personal ability, or the art he practiced, but he was able to "wind you up" with sinuous arm movements that would entwine and then strike with a flattened palm.

I have often thought of Carl while on the mat, and wished he was here to play with this, quite beautiful, art.

The kokyu ho hand position seems very similar to the palm position used in the palm-strikes of Pa Kua.

Both using circularity to evade, and control.

The oshi sabaki or footwork of Aikido is much more natural, with the movements of Pa Kua using more of the deep-stances of trad Wu Shu.

The two should be mutually complimentary, if one can remain firmly grounded in one or the other.

Mostly Pa Kua is an "inside," or up-close style, while Aikido's ma-ai beeing more of the armslength range.

Just some comparisons from my (quite limited)

exposure to Pa Kua.

Lan

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
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