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Old 08-29-2003, 02:26 AM   #26
PeterR
 
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Can't be done .... unless ...

It really depends on what you mean by atemi and what you mean by doing Aikido.

It is entirely possible to do very effective Aikido without close fisted percussive strikes. Of course in a real situation why would you even consider restricting yourself.
Quote:
Fausto Marta (Fausto) wrote:
Aikido without atemi can't be done in a real situation, unless you have the skill of O'Sensei or some of his top students or after 40 years of aikido. That's what I think...... maybe I'm wrong maybe I'm not.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-29-2003, 04:02 AM   #27
happysod
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These atemi threads always leave me a bit uneasy for several reasons. The inference (or even definitive statement)that aikido cannot be used without atemi implies aikido take-downs are actually less effective than the grappling arts or, for example, judo, which I belive don't normally rely on strike before technique - which is worrying (go for it Paul). Then there's the overly ambitious expectations of what atemi can actually do for your aikido which I've seen ruin a perfectly good technique.

I've been taught aikido (and aikijitsu) with atemi and without (ok, not aikijitsu) and haven't noticed any real difference in the effectiveness of either when done correctly. Atemi should be part of your aikido arsenal, I agree. However, too much emphasis on atemi can be disruptive to your technique and all atemi should be used only if the circumstances and technique warrent it. Too often I've seen it used instead of aikido rather than with good aikdo.
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Old 08-29-2003, 06:27 AM   #28
Kensai
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snort!! I LOVE the visual this calls up.

Wait 'till I show Sensei my "Throw of Doom..."

Heading off to class.........Lan

lol, I did giggle to myself too.

Yesterday in my class we did a variation of a kokyunage from 2 hand hold on the same arm (8th form, cant remember the Jap name) with a kind of backfist to the face and the BOSCH the throw went miles. Bloody cool. Even if your aware of the atemi, you buck your head back so not to get hit, I think this really improves the throw as it gives you more of there balance.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 08-29-2003, 11:07 AM   #29
Chuck Clark
 
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Target, distance, and timing ... with ki, ken, tai ichi.

Your full focused intent extending through the aite ... it doesn't matter what the initial contact body part is ... metsuke, tegatana, shotei, etc. it is all ATEMI.

Different applications of your intent cutting through the opponent at all times. It may be soft and controlling or it may be overwhelmingly powerful and crushing. Fit the effect to the need. It is all "striking" uke with your intent to control their mind and body.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 08-29-2003, 02:20 PM   #30
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
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Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
Don:

I believe this is the reference

Stevens (The Secrets of Aikido) p. 117

DJM: Thanks.

Geez you guys are getting picky-I was pulling the number off the top of my head.

DJM: 30%?!...who said that? ()
Quote:
Ian Hurst (happysod) wrote:
These atemi threads always leave me a bit uneasy for several reasons. The inference (or even definitive statement)that aikido cannot be used without atemi implies aikido take-downs are actually less effective than the grappling arts or, for example, judo, which I belive don't normally rely on strike before technique

DJM: But judo is unabashedly a sport.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 08-29-2003, 07:48 PM   #31
Thor's Hammer
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Few people answered my question-

HOW, or, where can I learn how? Is it OK to learn strikes from a karateka? I hardly know how to punch!
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Old 08-30-2003, 07:04 AM   #32
paw
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Don,

Ian wrote:
Quote:
These atemi threads always leave me a bit uneasy for several reasons. The inference (or even definitive statement)that aikido cannot be used without atemi implies aikido take-downs are actually less effective than the grappling arts or, for example, judo, which I belive don't normally rely on strike before technique
You replied:
Quote:
DJM: But judo is unabashedly a sport.
Which ignores the admittedly few dojo that do teach the entire Kodokan Judo cirriculum and ignores that in any context you image judoka, wrestlers, sambists, bjj'ers, etc... have entered, taken down/thrown highly skilled martial artists without use of atemi.

Bryan,
Quote:
HOW, or, where can I learn how? Is it OK to learn strikes from a karateka? I hardly know how to punch!
I would recommend going to a boxing gym (western boxing, thai boxing, savate....) If all you want to do is learn how strike, that will suffice. However, you will be on your own for integrating your strikes with your aikido. For already integrated striking with aikido, your aikido instructor should be showing you.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 08-30-2003, 12:23 PM   #33
PeterPhilippson
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Atemi are vital parts of some Aikido moves. You can't do irimitenkan without atemi - you just get hit yourself, since you are on the live side mostly.

Whether it is a full blow or a distraction is a choice to make in the situation. I don't think it is any more moral to hit people hard with the ground than with your fist.

Many aikido techniques also contain atemi: iriminage, tenchinage, any uchikaiten.

Yours in aiki,

Peter
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Old 08-30-2003, 06:16 PM   #34
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
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Quote:
You can't do irimitenkan without atemi - you just get hit yourself, since you are on the live side mostly.
You can't. Maybe I can't and maybe I can. I certainly know some people who can.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 08-31-2003, 07:44 AM   #35
L. Camejo
 
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A while back I was asked by a student who did striking arts before Aikido, why we don't train with makiwara and do breaking practices to practice our atemi in Aikido.

My little answer to that was both makiwara and breaking practice are based on striking from pretty static positions, also in the case of breaking, this is practice of "hard" atemi utilising mostly our own force to generate power.

The atemi waza we do in Aikido can be applied either soft or hard, but more important than that is the ability of the atemi to disrupt the attacker's balance while in motion and utilising the attacker's incoming force/momentum to set up powerful atemi waza (basically by making em run into the strike). I think timing is very important to apply atemi properly within the flow of technique, but one should not rely on the percussive (pain inflicting) aspect of atemi alone to make effective technique.

So, getting back to topic - I think application of atemi in striking based arts like Karate, TKD etc. is a little bit different to Aikido application, i.e. to disrupt uke's physical and mental balance to create openings to apply successful technique.

Though I would also admit that thorough knowledge of striking can only help one's Aikido.

Just some thoughts.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 08-31-2003, 11:26 PM   #36
kironin
 
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Cool

Quote:
Ian Hurst (happysod) wrote:
I've been taught aikido (and aikijitsu) with atemi and without (ok, not aikijitsu) and haven't noticed any real difference in the effectiveness of either when done correctly. Atemi should be part of your aikido arsenal, I agree. However, too much emphasis on atemi can be disruptive to your technique and all atemi should be used only if the circumstances and technique warrent it. Too often I've seen it used instead of aikido rather than with good aikdo.
Exactly!

I agree with your unease.

To often these threads come down to people worrying about being able to smack people at vital points or otherwise because of the insecurity they feel in their own technique (only O-sensei or his senior students could do this without atemi...) when in actual fact they need to understand better how to lead and unbalance with the initial engagement.

If one defines Atemi as it was so succintly put below, then I have no problem with one saying that Aikido is 99% Atemi.



=========

Atemi



2. Enter the body thorough the mind



3. Enter the mind thorough the body



__________________

Dennis Hooker

==================

<rei> Hooker Sensei

If you have become convinced that outside the dojo you need to hit to make your technique work, then you need to look real hard at how you train.

Craig
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Old 09-01-2003, 04:51 PM   #37
Vincent Munoz
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atemi

Sempai,

I respect ur principle in aikido. just a piece of advice, make sure that when you make the atemi, the fluidity of ki is not STOP. because that ki(force) is suppose to be the thing we use to deflict our aggressors. if its stop, then they'll become very heavy and difficult to lead. when you do a technique, theres should be a continuous flow of ki. atemi is usually used if or when the aggressors establish a holding attack. if there's ki, u dont need an atemi to throw the uke.

CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG.

shiete
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Old 09-01-2003, 09:48 PM   #38
kironin
 
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Cool

Quote:
Peter Philippson (PeterPhilippson) wrote:
Atemi are vital parts of some Aikido moves. You can't do irimitenkan without atemi - you just get hit yourself, since you are on the live side mostly.
If atemi means wave a fist this is not true.

There seem to be two general categories:

Those who break balance or facilitate unbalancing before doing irimi

and those who wave a fist or palm in uke's direction in the hope that this will distract/unbalance uke long enough to allow them to do irimi.

My personal experience is that the majority of those who train in latter way are living in a fantasy that will break the first time someone chooses to stop play acting. I just hope the discovery is made in the dojo.

In fairness, honest ukes are needed in the first case.

Craig

HKS
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