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Old 08-20-2003, 02:43 AM   #26
Bronson
 
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Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
Location: Battle Creek & Kalamazoo, MI
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,677
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Quote:
Under circumstances of full resistance - form can not be taught. Without understanding form - full resistance can't be dealt with.
Another thing I really wish I'd said.

May I use this? I'll be sure to credit you

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 08-20-2003, 03:30 AM   #27
PeterR
 
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Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Japan
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Quote:
Bronson Diffin (Bronson) wrote:
Another thing I really wish I'd said.

May I use this? I'll be sure to credit you
But of course.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-20-2003, 03:37 AM   #28
ian
 
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Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
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Too many dojos practise in a particular way. I think lots of different training methods are useful, though understanding what is being learnt is important. In the majority of cases we are repetitively learning one technique, along with distance and timing. For example some instructors always start their rear attacks from the front (uke then running round) and say this is a more realistic attack. I have been attacked from the rear in reality, and also if I was going to attack someone, my preference would be from behind.

Techniques from a stationary attack (esp. with resistance) are useful to learn body mechanics. Techniques where uke can change are useful for learning blending and adaptation. The only fear is producing scarppy techniques which cannot be polished because nage never gets chance to actually practise techniques. In addition, uke gets used to what you are going to do and (almost)anything can be resisted. Often it is necessary to practise the most common situation - where a person unaware of aikido or your ability in aikido, attacks.

Ian

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 08-20-2003, 11:31 AM   #29
jxa127
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 420
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Ian,

Good post, and you make some good points. One of the things that I like about my dojo is that we vary our training our training a bit between static and dynamic attacks. we also throw in some jiyu waza from time to time, and practice randori most most weeks. Etc. It's good to get some variety, but it's also good to get some time to really study a technique.

However, I had to laugh a little bit at this:
Quote:
For example some instructors always start their rear attacks from the front (uke then running round) and say this is a more realistic attack. I have been attacked from the rear in reality, and also if I was going to attack someone, my preference would be from behind.
My instructor used to say the same thing...until somebody tried to attack him by starting out in front of him and trying to put him in a bear hug from behind -- just like in the dojo.

So, your point is still a good one, I'd just be careful about discarding traditional training methods just because they don't seem to make sense. Still, we practice rear attacks from the rear as well as from the front.

Regards,

-Drew

----
-Drew Ames
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Old 08-20-2003, 12:11 PM   #30
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
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I've always been taught that the Ushiro waza and hojo dosa (suplementary movement) was done because we don't want to practise just turning our back on people, and to teach uke to never cross the "open" side of shite. In highly kata based styles (even the main line of daito ryu) there are always specific formula for "offering the back".

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-20-2003, 03:55 PM   #31
Vincent Munoz
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Location: Miami, Florida
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Philippines
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trying to practice with uke resisting to my opinion is good so everyone can relate the stuff we're doing inside the mat to the real world. but the sensei should not forget giving reminder to the aikidokas because if the uke resist, the nage will apply also some force which may result to injury. BUT, if there is continuity in the fluidity of KI(or force), no one can resist. if the aggressor has establish any holding attack, do not forget the ATEMI(destruction) then move quickly.
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Old 08-21-2003, 09:54 PM   #32
Chris Raeger
Dojo: Shinryukan Canterbury
Location: NZ
Join Date: Aug 2003
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Sounds to me like that TKD person was testing Aikido to see if it was any match for TKD.

As for resistance in training, this surely evolves as you do. There are many elements to technique and learning such. When you are ready and activiely seek more resistance it will be there. You will in one form or another communicate your desire for such. Look at the high grades and watch them train and realize that they have progressed to where they demand more from their training partners quite intuitively. Teaches will challenge and guide you, but ultimately it is up to you to look for, ask, desire, and communicate what you are ready for. I like to think this all happens 'naturally', when I am ready for it.
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Old 08-21-2003, 10:20 PM   #33
DaveO
Dojo: Great Wave Aikido
Location: Alberta, Canada
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 543
Canada
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Hello, friends! Haven't posted in a while.

I just had an interesting and fun experience related to this topic last night. I'm a 4th kyu; and we have a 1st kyu that is coming back into it after being out for about a year and a half because of school.

Ed's a great guy and terrific uke; he moves extremely well; he's just way outta practice in his kumi-waza.

Anyhoo; Neilsen Sensei wasn't there for this class; so our Sempai was running the class. He had Ed and I pair off and practice the 5th-3rd kyu required tecniques. Poor Ed; he was having serious trouble with the techniques - not only was he out of practice, but the requirements have also changed considerably since the last time he tested. We wound up in the interesting position of a 4th kyu teaching a 1st.

Had bags of fun; Ed has no ego in relation to rank, so he listened to what I was saying.

But anyway, to resistance: I was resisting his techniques; and resisting strongly according to a set plan. We'd practice the given technique a few times; then I'd slap on the resistance. Quite often; it'd bring Ed to a sudden confused stop. We would continue the resistance until he could complete the technique in spite of the resistance.

He was getting a bit frustrated at times; I pointed out to him that as a 1st kyu; the level of resistance should be no problem for him. With this approach; he was doing 1000 times better by the end of class - way better than I can do most of them.

So; resistance, IMO, can be a useful tool if applied properly; the trick is choosing the method and amount.

Cheers!

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 08-22-2003, 05:19 PM   #34
Lan Powers
Dojo: Aikido of Midland, Midland TX
Location: Midland Tx
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 660
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Thanks fellows, I have learned a lot about the different feelings of ukes. Like the differant body types/sizes... and also levels of resistance.

I plan to start to vary the levels I expect from my ukes, asking them to increase when they feel I am not well centered, out of maii,

or otherwise have "lost them" or they can feel that I might lose their center.

Of course this can only be done with the sempai who can vary their ukemi to stay safe.

Most of the students are quite new, and it wouldn't help them or me to mess with their ukemi (they are just getting the hang of how it works). Hey! come to think of it, so am I!



The consensus of the replies is that resistance will be introduced when appropriate for me.

Sorta like hi-falls.........happens when you are ready, and not before.

hmmmmmm

Lan

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
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Old 08-24-2003, 11:49 PM   #35
taylor
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 9
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Lots of great responses!

I'll add that it seems the deciding factor in judging "resistant uke's" is motivation.

If a wiser is turning up the heat so that you must use your center more, and yet still allowing you to feel the technique, then thank that one. If someone is locking you out of the technique being demonstrated, then of course there is no benefit, and you should tell them so. "I'm not getting anything out of you thwarting my training."

If it is a fight, then resistance is usually an open door to atemi. If someone "spins out" then really, they have broken off the attack and you must re-evaluate your relationship. E.g., are they still the aggressor? If they attack again, it is a new situation. In a fight this can happen over and over, while you're looking for the right opening to stop the violence. Sometimes this means you must attack as well, in order to regain the connection.

I could see this scenario happening in a large crowd, where it is not only yourself you are defending, but actually trying to subdue a person in a more assertive way.

Heck, you may even run around behind the guy and put him in a Full Nelson! (Hope he doesn't know Aikido!)

So, understand what the training parameters are for the given lesson, and train with others who also understand.

Don't waist too much time with people just out to prove something. Pass them onto your seniors.
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