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Old 08-14-2003, 10:27 AM   #76
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Quote:
. I feel your point would be stronger if there were an established cirriculum and a visible sign of rank (like colored belts).
Exactly like where I came up...yosh to the end...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-14-2003, 12:18 PM   #77
Alfonso
Join Date: Aug 2002
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this really is just winding down is it? maybe just flailing in every direction.

about the assumption, I just though it reflected something important; I don't think >= 5th dan imply ahtleticism or fighiting ability though at some point these people may have been both.

Since in the beginning a question was aked about the appropriateness of awarding kyu ranks without a formal test I really don't see where the unethical combat claims got involved.

the boxing story was an illustration; in short it talks about some poor guy who died recently in a bout though posssibly not from being knocked in the head , but from in general being a poor boxer yet still allowed to fight professionally. (record 0-27).. in any case it had happened 2 days ago only. didn't have to stretch very hard to find a less romantic vision of boxing at hand, in any case a digression.

In any case somehow people manage to keep on testing (or not) and keep on training and enjoying aikido. Looking at other people instead of oneself seems to be a sure way to stop enjoying aikido..

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 08-14-2003, 06:29 PM   #78
Aikilove
Dojo: Lunds Aikidoklubb
Location: Lund, Sweden
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Quote:
paul watt (paw) wrote:
Alfonso,

If you're not being sarcastic, then I pose the same question I did earlier: is it ethical or honest to make any combative claims about aikido then?
What the.. Yes! why not? If you mean that people claims it's great for self defence, I beg to say it is! It is great for self defence! I train only aikido (no pumping, running, boxing, compeeting etc). I've been in a situation were I was attacked by two men without warning. I wasn't hurt; they weren't hurt (more then their pride). Is it the person and not the system? Perhaps... but I would bet money on that someone (probably me) would have been hurt hadn't I trained aikido. Hence I would say aikido WORKS! It has nothing to do wether Alfonso was sarcastic or not in his statement. Aikido works; Since it does, why would it be un-ethical for people that know it does to say it does. No-one (I've ever trained under anyway) has claimed that people training aikido will never get his/her ass whoopt, but that wouldn't be aikido to blame. It worked (and works everyday) for me, visavi it works. Don't you think so? If not what do you base that on?

Yeehhsh!!

Last edited by Aikilove : 08-14-2003 at 06:42 PM.

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 08-15-2003, 06:31 AM   #79
paw
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Jakob,

Let's say you hired me to be your basketball coach. So, I took you out to a beach, gave you a volleyball and began training you in playing volleyball. Would you keep me as a coach?

Running and jumping in sand is more difficult than on a basketball court. A volleyball "pass" is sort of like a basketball jump shot. I could even have you play a basketball game, and even if you should do well, would you still keep me as a basketball coach?

Of course not (at least, I hope not). Fundamentally, I would be teaching you a different game --- volleyball --- not basketball. That's the point I'm making. If students are never subjected to anything that has some correlation between self-defense or combat, it's disingenous to suggest the training perpares them for it.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 08-15-2003, 07:31 AM   #80
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
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Paul, sorry, but you've lost me a bit here - are you saying aikido doesn't prepare you for combat or aikido with only the kata element present (no sparring etc.)?

Enquiring young minds wish to know
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Old 08-15-2003, 08:00 AM   #81
paw
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Ian,
Quote:
Paul, sorry, but you've lost me a bit here - are you saying aikido doesn't prepare you for combat or aikido with only the kata element present (no sparring etc.)?
The later. The body adapts to the demands placed upon it. If you want to be a great swimmer, you have to swim. If you want to be able to have "combative" skills or "self-defense" skills, a part of one's training has to mimic "combat" or "self-defense". I firmly believe this to be true, not just for aikido, but for all martial arts/martial systems/martial sports.

Is that more clear?

Regards,

Paul
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Old 08-15-2003, 08:01 AM   #82
Aikilove
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Quote:
paul watt (paw) wrote:
Jakob,

Of course not (at least, I hope not). Fundamentally, I would be teaching you a different game --- volleyball --- not basketball. That's the point I'm making. If students are never subjected to anything that has some correlation between self-defense or combat, it's disingenous to suggest the training perpares them for it.

Paul
Every time someone joins an aikido class they are subjected to aikido, which work as a means of self preserver. How can it then be disingenous to suggest that among other things aikido will give you a means to preserv you and your surrounding? The only way to truly understand this is lots of training in aikido. I don't have to have combat/sparring training to know it works since myself and many more have been in situations enough to know it works. And here's the beauty of it all: it even work for people that doesn't see it as self defence, as long as they are training aikido. This is budo, not sport, not basketball or anything else. It's non-compareable.

*sigh* OT again...

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 08-15-2003, 08:21 AM   #83
paw
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Jakob,
Quote:
How can it then be disingenous to suggest that among other things aikido will give you a means to preserv you and your surrounding?
LOL! You're getting so defensive and emotional. Stop and think about this.

At no point am I suggesting that aikido does not work or cannot work.
Quote:
The only way to truly understand this is lots of training in aikido.
You're assuming I don't. That's a poor assumption.
Quote:
I don't have to have combat/sparring training to know it works since myself and many more have been in situations enough to know it works.
I know more people have successfully defended themselves with no martial training of any kind than people have defended themselves who had training. I'd bet this is statistically true worldwide. Therefore, no training more successful than any training, so why bother?
Quote:
This is budo, not sport, not basketball or anything else. It's non-compareable.
Really? So budo doesn't involve physics, gravity, body movement, timing, coordination, balance? Strawman argument based on emotion, not common sense. BTW, Kano settled this in 1886 during the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department challenge.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 08-15-2003, 08:42 AM   #84
happysod
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Paul, yep more clear, thanks. I also almost agree with you. The "almost" is because while I think for a good grounding in self defence the combative issues you mentioned should be in your training, I don't believe even kata-only training is a total waste of time with regards how you would react in a "real" (hate that term) situation.

Even with cooporative dancing ukes, the fact that you are used to working with both some form of attack and moving with the emphasis on placing your partner in peril will be of some use in the hypothetical real thing.

I agree, using only kata training is not an efficient method of training for combat, but I don't think it is as divorced as you're implying (or at least shouldn't be). The area I feel it's more lacking is that it doesn't help with the mindset you need, rather than the movements practiced.
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Old 08-15-2003, 08:55 AM   #85
Aikilove
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Quote:
paul watt (paw) wrote:
Jakob,



LOL! You're getting so defensive and emotional. Stop and think about this.
Who said I havn't?
Quote:
At no point am I suggesting that aikido does not work or cannot work.
Then what's the problem?
Quote:
You're assuming I don't. That's a poor assumption.
I don't assume anything. I explain that I know it works and many more with me, therefor I (and most as it seems)don't feel the need to change the way aikido is being taught for the sake of self sefence purpose.
Quote:
I know more people have successfully defended themselves with no martial training of any kind than people have defended themselves who had training. I'd bet this is statistically true worldwide. Therefore, no training more successful than any training, so why bother?
I would say that there has been very few cases when someone training in aikido had to defend him/herself at all. That says it all I think about this art.
Quote:
Really? So budo doesn't involve physics, gravity, body movement, timing, coordination, balance? Strawman argument based on emotion, not common sense. BTW, Kano settled this in 1886 during the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department challenge.
yes it does! And so does aikido, as it has been trained by most since it got it's name. Still can't compare it with sport regarding it's effectivnes. Sport works. Aikido works. Aikido not a sport. No correlation!

What did Kano settled more than what a cagefighter settles today? What has that got to do with aikido?

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 08-15-2003, 08:59 AM   #86
Aikilove
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I realize that this kind of discussion has been around and will continue to be around) since the birth of aikido.

It seems that it will only lead to frustration for some people, so I will also bow out of this one.

Train hard! Have fun doing it!

Jakob Blomquist
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