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Old 07-31-2003, 01:24 PM   #26
PeterR
 
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Quote:
paul watt (paw) wrote:
I would say the football players aren't learning aikido any more than I would look at a group of basketball players jogging and declare that they are learning track and field.
For that you would have to ask to football players although I would suspect they would say no they weren't.

What we study is really quite relative. My part time study of Aikido is quite pitiful when compared to some of the full-time Aikido deshi that I know. Do I study Aikido?

If they say yes than I would be forced to say the once or twice a week neighbourhood dojo student is also studying and by extention they would be forced to conceed that the football players are.

Paul do you remember Ubaldo - he couldn't get on a mat but there are few that would contradict him when he said he was studying Aikido.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-31-2003, 01:48 PM   #27
jxa127
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Quote:
paul watt (paw) wrote:
Drew,



Looks like a standard point-fighting tournament. It's heavily striking based.

Out of curiosity, why were you thinking of entering?

Regards,

Paul
Hi Paul,

Partially it was that the advertising said the tournament was open to all martial arts styles and people of all ranks. Partially I thought it'd be a neat way to spend a Saturday morning. Partially it's because the tournament is part of a big festival we have here in Harrisburg that's really cool.

Generally, I agree with the concept that aikido is not for competition, but I thought about seeing how I'd do outside the dojo against aother styles.

FWIW, I've used my training for real, so I didn't have to prove anything to myself.

*shrug* The tournamen just seemed like a neat idea. However, after looking at the rules, I realized that a lot of what I know wouldn't be applicable. That's not to say that aikido couldn't be used in this case, just that I'm not sure how I'd do it.

Any suggestions?

Regards,

-Drew

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Old 07-31-2003, 01:53 PM   #28
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Quote:
Drew Ames (jxa127) wrote:
Okay, I'm not taking personally the comments about being scared or using O' Sensei to rationalize not competing...

<snip>
Ha ha, it seems I cut you deep when I was not even aiming for you, how very "Aikido" of you.

Seriously though, dont mind me, I am just another faceless voice on the internet and my opinion should be of no consequence to you, it should not even affect you enough to ellicit a response.
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Old 07-31-2003, 02:04 PM   #29
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Wynand,

Well, I hate broad generalizations, they all stink.

Seriously, though, I was trying to bring this discussion from the theoretical and general to the specific.

What would you (or anyone else who chooses to answer) do in the specific tournament I mentioned?

Regards,

-Drew

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Old 07-31-2003, 02:22 PM   #30
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Quote:
Drew Ames (jxa127) wrote:
Wynand,

<snip>

Seriously, though, I was trying to bring this discussion from the theoretical and general to the specific.

What would you (or anyone else who chooses to answer) do in the specific tournament I mentioned?

<snip>
You cant discuss specific things on the internet, you can only waffle along describing scenarios playing in your minds eye.

There is literally an infinite number of ways your fight could play out, lots of people recommend that your outwait and maintain ma-ai when going up against a striker, others recommend the timely application of atemi waza. Personally I recommend spiking their water-cooler with powerful laxatives and bringing your own water in a bottle before the match.

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Old 07-31-2003, 02:33 PM   #31
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Drew,
Quote:
Generally, I agree with the concept that aikido is not for competition, but I thought about seeing how I'd do outside the dojo against aother styles.
cough *Tomiki* cough. I'm all for that, but I would do so in a less restrictive environment. Say, light contract strikes standing, no strikes on the ground, to submission...just as an example.
Quote:
What would you (or anyone else who chooses to answer) do in the specific tournament I mentioned?
Keep in mind that I'd never enter a point fighting tournament. If I'm going to kick and punch, I want to make contact darn it --- without a judge stopping me.

I'd get a cup, a mouthgard, enter a "novice" division and just box.

Peter,
Quote:
Paul do you remember Ubaldo - he couldn't get on a mat but there are few that would contradict him when he said he was studying Aikido.
I do remember and miss him. I regret that I cannot speak from personal experience, however, Ubaldo, as best I recall, knew aikido terminology, it's history and training methods. He seemed familiar enough that I have no doubt that if he were physically able, he could have passed several kyu exams with little trouble.

In contrast, the football players would not know aikido terminology, it's history, training methods, basic attacks, etc.... They would be preforming a drill or two that happened to have origins in aikido, but I doubt they would be aware of that or even care. Therefore, I would answer, no they are not studying aikido.

Another example.... Powerlifting is a competition comprised of the bench press, the squat and the deadlift. If someone trains these are they a powerlifter? I, and most powerlifters would say no. Until you compete and are judged by meet criteria, you're not a powerlifter. Most people bench press in the gym. Very few bench press in accordance with powerlifting rules. That's the difference --- the context.

Does that help explain where I'm coming from?

As I understand your point, you are only discussing frequency of training as the only varience. However, once a week or every day, it's the same basic training, a complete method of "stuff" that we recognize as aikido --- the context is the same.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 07-31-2003, 02:45 PM   #32
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But the football players arent trying to learn aikido they are trying to improve their FOOTBALL using aikido exercises.

Q
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Old 07-31-2003, 03:15 PM   #33
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Quote:
But the football players arent trying to learn aikido they are trying to improve their FOOTBALL using aikido exercises.
Right. Which bring me back to my original statements in my first post. Why adopt something unrelated to your specific sport (outside of the context) when there exists methods of resolving the issue within your sport (the same context) and further, you'll already undertake?

Even among professional athletes, training time is not unlimited.

This brings back Peter's original question, "did it work?" I tried to suggest:

1. Just because aikido was taught to select group doesn't mean aikido is effective for that group.

and

2. The context of football is radically different between the context of aikido randori to such a great degree that it is probably not worth persuing.

Lance Armstrong just won his 5th Tour de France. There's no question he has amazing aerobic conditioning. I'll be the rent money he'd loose in a 10K run against a mediocre runner, or a mile swim against a mediocre swimmer. Why? No significant carryover between biking, running or swimming.

Does that make sense?

Regards,

Paul

(who is getting on his bike to try and beat the rain on the ride home)
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Old 07-31-2003, 04:16 PM   #34
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I bet he'd beat me at either swimming or running, and I'm pretty mediocre.

...

Sorry.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 07-31-2003, 10:11 PM   #35
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Tournament

Hey Drew, you have mentioned that local tournament four times in this tread.

You seen eager to go and to test the "thing" right?

Are you aware why nobody replies giving counseling to you about this? Because nobody wants to feel responsabile for what can happen there... dont be afraid is not that bad, it is not easy to harm a 30 year men like you.

What Engle sensei says about?

What division do you want to enter?

Do you have ready your "gear" (besides cups, mouth..)I mean the variations on techniques that can be fuzzed you most probable will have to use (within the rules)

It is your decision man, make it wise!

If I were you I stoped by some dojos going to see what they have first.

Praetorian

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Old 08-01-2003, 12:56 AM   #36
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Quote:
paul watt (paw) wrote:
In contrast, the football players would not know aikido terminology, it's history, training methods, basic attacks, etc.... They would be preforming a drill or two that happened to have origins in aikido, but I doubt they would be aware of that or even care. Therefore, I would answer, no they are not studying aikido.
In the context of our discussion I agree they are not studying Aikido BUT (I was feeling expansive last night) I have no idea to what extent the football players trained.

Did they put on the funny white suits, did they terrify the regular members ("You want me to iriminage that"), how long did they train for.

I suspect it is just as we described but if it was more than that then during the time they trained in AIkido then they were studying it.

I am very tolerant of the non-regular Aikido practioner who still likes to think he studies Aikido - if that's what they believe who am I to question. Ergo - you have to ask the football players what they thought.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-01-2003, 06:42 AM   #37
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Quote:
Drew Ames (jxa127) wrote:
Okay, I'm not taking personally the comments about being scared or using O' Sensei to rationalize not competing, but here's a link to the tournament I was thinking of entering. Download the rules, and then let's talk about how aikido could be used:

http://www.joergskarate.com/breath.htm

The last time I looked at the rules, I thought that a lot of how I'd react was prohibited. But, maybe there's something I missed.

Regards,

-Drew
No head contact and no grappling doesn't seem to leave much although I guess it would depend on how they define grappling.

Even if they did allow aikido techniques, have you thought about what would happen if you pulled off a strong throw against someone with no ukemi skills? The rules will disqualify you for causing "blood or redness", I'm guessing broken necks are frowned uppon.

I know it sounds like a cop out to say "I don't compete because I'm afraid I'll hurt someone" but it is much easier to pull a punch than to go easy with an aikido technique and still have it be effective.
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Old 08-01-2003, 07:35 AM   #38
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Re: Tournament

Quote:
Manuel Ch. Anderson (Pretoriano) wrote:
Hey Drew, you have mentioned that local tournament four times in this tread.
I mentioned this four times 'cause few people would answer the direct question. It seems that most people want to talk about generalities rather than specifics.
Quote:
You seen eager to go and to test the "thing" right?
Maybe.
Quote:
Are you aware why nobody replies giving counseling to you about this? Because nobody wants to feel responsabile for what can happen there... dont be afraid is not that bad, it is not easy to harm a 30 year men like you.
HA! (I'm not 30 yet, although I'm close.) I feel like tenderized meat after last night's class. More to the point, I'm not asking people to tell me what to do, I'm asking what you would do in my situation. Would you enter the tournament? If so, what kind of techniques, tai sabaki, etc. might you use?
Quote:
What Engle sensei says about?

What division do you want to enter?

Do you have ready your "gear" (besides cups, mouth..)I mean the variations on techniques that can be fuzzed you most probable will have to use (within the rules)

It is your decision man, make it wise!
Engle sensei was cool about it. But, I looked at the rules, figured that without "grappling, head or back contact, etc." I won't have much to offer, and decided that this particular competition isn't for me. I was entranced by the idea of a competition truly open to all styles, but this one is really geared for Tae Kwon Do, Karate, or other striking arts.

Praetorian, thanks for your comments. (Weren't the praetorian the Roman emperor's private guards?)

Ken said:
Quote:
No head contact and no grappling doesn't seem to leave much although I guess it would depend on how they define grappling.

Even if they did allow aikido techniques, have you thought about what would happen if you pulled off a strong throw against someone with no ukemi skills? The rules will disqualify you for causing "blood or redness", I'm guessing broken necks are frowned upon.

I know it sounds like a cop out to say "I don't compete because I'm afraid I'll hurt someone" but it is much easier to pull a punch than to go easy with an aikido technique and still have it be effective.
Well, that's what I was thinking too. That is the practical side of the argument against competition in aikido. Lacking competition to keep our edge, we must have good, strong ukemi -- with serious, committed, and intelligent attacks. Those attacks can be the traditional aikido attacks, but they must be good. We need ukes who will show us our weaknesses. We need frequent jiyu waza and randori practice to test us. And we need a willingness to occasionally practice against untraditional attacks. Even Tomiki aikido competitions, as I understand them, are based on something like jiyu waza and tanto tori -- fairly traditional aikido stuff.

So, my answer to the original question is that aikido does not fit well into standard competition formats, and there are other ways to train in a spontaneous (unscripted) manner.

Regards,

-Drew

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Old 08-01-2003, 08:12 AM   #39
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Drew,
Quote:
Well, that's what I was thinking too. That is the practical side of the argument against competition in aikido.
I don't buy that at all. In a world with no-lie training knives, redman suits, high guard suits and simunition, there's a lot that can be trained safely.
Quote:
we must have good, strong ukemi -- with serious, committed, and intelligent attacks. Those attacks can be the traditional aikido attacks, but they must be good. We need ukes who will show us our weaknesses. We need frequent jiyu waza and randori practice to test us. And we need a willingness to occasionally practice against untraditional attacks.
If "we" as aikidoists can train it, "we" as aikidoist can create a set of rules and make it competition if "we" so choose.

As I mentioned previously, I don't blame you for not entering the tournament. I wouldn't either. In my opinion the rules are restrictive to any grappling art and most striking arts I know (muay thai, for example). Peter has gotten great overlap with judo randori so that might be an "outside the box" option.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 08-01-2003, 08:31 AM   #40
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Drew,

Point sparring is for punks. This tourney would leave you like a fish out of water. No sweeps and no grappling? No hitting below the waist or in the back? These are TKD rules...never enter a fight when the rules favor (outrageously) the other side.

The best bet is to find someone near you or someone in your dojo to practice realistically against. Tournies like htis are a no no.

Whatever you choose, i wish you the best of luck

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 08-01-2003, 08:58 AM   #41
jxa127
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Quote:
paul watt (paw) wrote:
Drew,
I don't buy that at all. In a world with no-lie training knives, redman suits, high guard suits and simunition, there's a lot that can be trained safely.
Paul,

I'm confused. What do the above have to do with competition? I think they're great things, but they're training aids, not competition equipment, right?

Quote:
If "we" as aikidoists can train it, "we" as aikidoist can create a set of rules and make it competition if "we" so choose.
Sure, like Tomiki aikido. I've got nothing against them, but their competition is structured within an aikido framework (duh ). Most competitions that I've seen aren't structured that way. That's what I meant by the practical consideration against competiton.

Quote:
As I mentioned previously, I don't blame you for not entering the tournament. I wouldn't either. In my opinion the rules are restrictive to any grappling art and most striking arts I know (muay thai, for example).
Right, that's what I meant. The rules for that competiton are restrictive and what I know wouldn't fit too well. I suspect that's true for a lot of competitons.

Regards,

-Drew

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Old 08-01-2003, 09:26 AM   #42
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Drew,
Quote:
I'm confused. What do the above have to do with competition? I think they're great things, but they're training aids, not competition equipment, right?
I misunderstood your earlier statment. I thought you were saying aikido is inherently too dangerous to have a competition with, when what you were saying was aikido techniques would be considered too dangerous for this particular point fighting competition.

In the larger picture, a number of people, myself included, just view competition as another form of training ... so training equipment may be competion equipment, and modern training equipment let us train a lot closer to the edge than most people realize.
Quote:
I suspect that's true for a lot of competitons.
I don't think judo is that much of a stretch... neither would be MMA ... although that's a big step up. Alternatively, you could try Tomiki...I'm sure Peter would put in a good word for you.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 08-01-2003, 02:33 PM   #43
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Re: Re: Tournament

Quote:
Drew Ames (jxa127) wrote:
Even Tomiki aikido competitions, as I understand them, are based on something like jiyu waza and tanto tori -- fairly traditional aikido stuff.
Jiyu waza, tanto dori is what we call kakare geiko - a pretty low level form of randori.

Full blown randori is like nothing you have ever experienced if all you have done is non-tomiki Aikdio. If you've done Judo randori you might have a better idea.

Full resistance randori is a training aid - so is its logical extetion shiai. Although both operate within a framework the lessons learned are applicable over all ones Aikdio and beyond. My Judo is what it is because of the Aikido.

The thing is how do you know your Aikido is too dangerous for competition - to make statements like that it must have been tested. Personally I find randori pretty restrictive but I am convinced that if I can't learn to deal with its unique environment my Aikido has little chance in an even more chaotic one.

I have seen too many beautiful waza rendered useless when applied against a smart, skilled and resisting opponent.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-01-2003, 07:30 PM   #44
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Re: Re: Tournament

Drew:

Tonight, I just attended to a point contact karate clinic gave by American heavy weight champion JP Micthel Team named Tetion.

The guy, a consumed martial artist showed us how to be faster and precise, using economical movements, also heavily stressed the need to fight smart, he organized some drills for to work on the above, and then proceed to fight around 30 people from age of 6 to adult, some sensei fought him, Tetion walked up his talk, and gave pretty examples on the above. Top nocth atlete, excelente attitude, one bravo for him!

Drew: you have some courage you know, yes, definetively this sort of tournaments were concieved to determined martial aproach, I think a little mix will work well, maybe it is good for you to go as observer this year, and to sign up the next.

Do you know how Shogun's close guard were named?

I agree with Ken he explained it very well.

Praetorian
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Old 08-01-2003, 11:03 PM   #45
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Peter,

I never said that I consider aikido too dangerous for competitions, but I did agree with the poster who mentioned that pulling a technique on somebody without ukemi training could be dangerous. My main point was that I thought about competing in a local tournament and then saw that the rules pretty much forbade what I know how to do.

Anyway, tell me more about Tomiki randori. The way we do it, it's multiple attackers (at one time), any attack. We usually don't stop when nage ends up taken down -- at least not the first time.

Regards,

-Drew

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Old 08-02-2003, 12:22 AM   #46
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Quote:
Drew Ames (jxa127) wrote:
I never said that I consider aikido too dangerous for competitions, but I did agree with the poster who mentioned that pulling a technique on somebody without ukemi training could be dangerous.
So you did - sorry. We place a lot of emphasis on training for control and understanding when resistance is futile. Injuries when they occur are usually because a failure in these regards. Unlike Judo (at least the training I've done) we don't do randori until quite some time has passed.

There is a lot of description of shodokan randori - just follow the links in my signature. It's been discussed here before and this morning I'm in a bit of a rush.

Perhaps one of the other Shodokan people can expand.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-04-2003, 11:06 AM   #47
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Aikido and Karate tournaments

Hello,

New poster here. I just thought I'd add my two cents to the topic. Drew, I've trained in both aikido and karate, training in aikido first. When I was a teenager, in the summertime, I would stay with my father in a different state than I normally lived in during the school year, so I'd supplement my aikido training with karate classes (the only thing resembling a dojo in town). My first tournament was after I'd had a fair bit of experience in each.

It completely threw me.

For one thing, in many karate tournaments, hardly anyone is really trying to hit you. Those that do give you a decent attack only have to barely miss you in order to get the point. It becomes almost a game of tag, where, if I touch my hand to the top of your head, I get the point. Not to mention that the judging is done by "black belts" on each corner of the "ring". Given the proliferation of "McDojos" and eight-year-old black belts, you might be surprised by the kinds of folks that are judging you.

Not that I'm totally trying to put down tournaments -- they can be fun for what they are . . but if you're really looking to test some of your skills, I'd recommend possibly trying something like judo, jujutsu or MMA. Your background in aiki (assuming that you've developed some decent grappling skills) might serve you better there. If your atemi waza is outstanding, you might do fine in a karate point sparring tournament, but you might want to work out with some karate guys to get an idea of the kinds of kicks you'll expect to encounter. Also, if you're not ranked in karate, your aikido rank might not be recognized and you'll have to compete in the beginner's bracket (not always a bad thing, but not usually where you're going to find the tough competitors).

Still interested? I think another poster here wrote it best that you might want to go watch the tournament and see if it looks like something you'd want to do. If you're still interested, then find some karate guys that do compete in point sparring and work out with them, so you'll know how to best use your skills within the rules allowed.

Good luck,

Budd

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Old 08-04-2003, 11:56 AM   #48
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Been lurking around this thread for a while now . Lots of valid points.

To give Peter a helping hand, Shodokan randori is based on a single attacker coming at you constantly with a soft tanto.

The strike used by Tanto (the person armed with the tanto) is limited to very quick, sharp and precise tsuki (thrusts) to the target area which is above the belt and below the shoulders on all sides. For Tanto to score a point (which is in fact a penalty against Toshu for poor body avoidance) the soft tanto must bend about half way and Tanto must maintain controlled and straight posture, with the striking arm parallel to the floor as well.

Unlike in kata Aikido practice and lower levels of low or no resistance randori (kakari geiko) the idea is to score an unquestionable hit, so Tanto is not pulling shots or attacking without meaning. Faking, jab-like motions, constant quick attacks and following of the moving target are the norm.

In the event that Toshu (defender) attempts a technique, Tanto can resist it by body positioning to negate the tech., muscular tension, use of tegatana against the arms or by applying one of 5 allowed counters techniques (atemi waza).

Both Tanto and Toshu are aware of, and trained in the techniques allowed, which are the 17 basic techs of the Randori no kata, seen here http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi10.html .

As such, neither person is caught by "surprise" or hidden techniques, unless the surprise is in the particular variation applied.

This creates a situation where skill must be applied to get off a successful technique. Without correct kuzushi (disruption of balance), timing and setup for a technique, Tanto is able to negate most attempts (being aware of what may be used and skillfully being able to counter) and keeps coming at Toshu.

In most cases if not all, successful and "clean" techniques (ippon) are only possible when Toshu's tai sabaki, timing, kuzushi and setup (kake) all work together in harmony the way they are supposed to. Else it's a constant chess match between players trying to disrupt the other's balance or trying to get off a strike, counter or combination of techs.

Hope this helps and I hope I did not misrepresent or forget anything Peter.

Back to lurkdom

Arigato Gozaimashita

L.C.

Last edited by L. Camejo : 08-04-2003 at 12:01 PM.

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Old 08-04-2003, 12:13 PM   #49
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Re: Re: Re: Tournament

Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Jiyu waza, tanto dori is what we call kakare geiko - a pretty low level form of randori.

Full blown randori is like nothing you have ever experienced if all you have done is non-tomiki Aikdio. If you've done Judo randori you might have a better idea.
I must concur with this point. Having welcomed practitioners and instructors from a few other Aikido styles, a common denominator among all have been their reaction to our style of randori. It can be a very humbling thing when a 6th kyu can shut down yudansha under pressure. But humility is a great asset in walking the path.
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Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Personally I find randori pretty restrictive but I am convinced that if I can't learn to deal with its unique environment my Aikido has little chance in an even more chaotic one.
Amen brother. This is why I am slowly trying to develop a form of randori structured on shiai-based randori, but allowing for a gradual application of more attacks with tanto and possibly a few more techinques than allowed in the junanahon. Shhh... this is my little experiment don't tell The big N. in Osaka ok.

Just 2 more cents.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 08-04-2003, 02:33 PM   #50
PeterR
 
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Tournament

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Larry Camejo (L. Camejo) wrote:
Shhh... this is my little experiment don't tell The big N. in Osaka ok.
We're supposed to experiment. The only reason for the Shodokan dogma is to provide a framework in the context of curriculum (sound technical basis) and for the times groups come togeather.

You covered randori just fine but please don't forget toshu randori were both are unarmed. This is a far tougher media to pull off as attacks tend to be much more subtle and the range of counters increases from five to seventeen. And folks please remember that the number refers to the kihon technique as source - variations abound.

I'm writing from the Maharaja Lounge in Dubai. Computer terminals in an Arab motif. Seriously cool.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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