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Old 07-24-2003, 08:14 PM   #26
Larry Feldman
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Jo - Nice try. Unfortunately the mind is like a parachute, it only works properly when open.
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Old 07-24-2003, 11:58 PM   #27
Mark Shapiro
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Thank you all very much for the energy you've invested in this discussion. As the great Terry Dobson said, "The purpose of conflict is harmony." And if we can all get to know ourselves better in the process, then it was worth it.

I for one learned a great deal in reading these posts. I felt my heart racing at times with the fight or flight response, and real rage. A part of me was really pissed off and felt very misunderstood, and not heard. I noticed my urge to defend and attack back when I perceived an attack, and I noticed a sense of comraderie when someone said something I agreed with. I noticed judgment about the people I didn't even know! This is not how I want to live!

So, I used the 3 Easy Lessons. (1) Feel where you are: I took a breath, enhanced my connection to the ground, and noticed these feelings and allowed them to be, and they began to subside. Then (2)I felt the relationship. I felt into the kind of harmony I wanted to have with you all, and imagined I was facing the same direction you were, rather than opposing you. And inside of this harmonious space, I'll now (3), share who I am:

Having seen many of the vastly different Aikido styles out there, I don't think we should be surprised at differences of opinion. I respect and welcome them with open arms. You might have heard the story that O Sensei was told by his teacher, "Your Aiki-jutsu is getting weird" and O Sensei replied, "Then I will no longer call it Aiki-jutsu." And so Aikido evolved out of that tension. I wonder what would have happened if O Sensei and his teacher got locked into a big flame war about it. We might not have the art we have today!

Again, thank you all for the energy, and I sincerely hope to have the opportunity to train with you sometime, so we might share our interpretations of the art. And I'd like to suggest that none of us have gotten it right yet, because no one has even come close to matching O Sensei's abilities, and the world is not yet "one family" as he said would happen when "Aikido bears fruit in this world." I wonder what he meant by that, and I wonder how we can move a little closer to his vision. I guess we need to keep training, and cherish the conflicts (within and without) as opportunities to generate love. To me, that's Aikido. And we train it as a martial art that works, by the way, but I don't personally think that O Sensei's gift was intended only for martial artists.

Thank you very much for reading such a long post!

Mark Shapiro

Aikido of Marin
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Old 07-25-2003, 02:05 AM   #28
Kenny
 
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Thanks for putting up the announcement

Quote:
AikiWeb System wrote:
7/18/2003 2:59pm [from Jun Akiyama]

Website: http://www.ccvfilm.com/

[/url].
June I just wanted to publicly express my thanks to you for spreading the word about Richards DVD. As a long time student of both Moon Sensie and Nadeau Shihan, I was overwhelmed at the premier to hear Nadeau Shihan say.

"You know when I was watching the Aiki dance sequence I was reminded of O'Sensei working with dancers, I think O'Sensei would have liked this if he had seen it"

One of the great things I see in Richards work is making the core lessons of Aikido accessible, in a format that does not require a mat. I personally am an endorphin junkie and find self justification in getting wacked with wooden sticks and whatnot but there a few poor misguided fools out there who aren't and don't and so will never spend as much time as I have in the dojo. I'm selfish, I'd like even them to learn the lessons I am trying to learn from Aikido, wether they want to learn them or not^

As Nadeau Shihan likes to say "O'Sensei just happened to be a martial artists. If he had been a farmer..."

[ed: We'd all be practicing with a hoe instead of a jo.]

For those of you who are serious about bringing the lessons you get from Aikido into your daily life please go to http://www.extraordinarylistening.com/books/books.html where you'll find many of Richards writings including the sister book Life in 3 Easy Lessons. Read the book and you can respond to what Richard actually has to say as opposed to just reacting to the marketing literature.
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Old 07-25-2003, 02:26 AM   #29
YEME
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Freaky!

this message was brought to you by Pepsi. For other delicious beverages by the same maker go to www.pepsi.com


i reserve my right to have an opinion however narrow minded or uninformed it may sometimes be.

*please note that opinion is also often subject to change.

**just not this time.

Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome.
--Isaac Asimov

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Old 07-25-2003, 05:51 AM   #30
Paul Smith
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Aleksey -

The substantive discussion aside (I agree with you), I enjoy your writing. Keep it up, boy!

Paul Smith
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Old 07-25-2003, 10:11 AM   #31
Qatana
 
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Anna how come you can have your opinion but Richard's students can't?

Please notice that they are not Putting Anybody Down.

Is making jokes about things people take seriously good Aikido?

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 07-25-2003, 10:32 AM   #32
Paul Smith
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I think much of the objection comes from the idea of "3-easy" anything. Whether that is a tongue in cheek title or not, I think that what Aleksey may, at least in part, be objecting to is the notion that the path is one which can be encapsulated so easily, and such a notion, endemic to our society (and perhaps our art in particular), attracts a crowd looking for the quick fix.

If so, I agree with him. From Timothy Leary's acid experiments in the '60's to now, the idea of short-circuiting what is truly an arduous path (arduous path to discover it was easy all along - but that is another thread), I object to those aspects of our culture which trade sound bites and fast food-styled gorgings for earnest, self-reflecting effort.

I also happen to believe the way in to the "ancillary benefits" of Aikido - the broader goals of "the way to harmony" with all things, comes from a harder place than what I saw in the trailer (and seemingly promulgated in the '3-easy steps' idea). In other words, learning true peace comes from truly martial practice. Even using the very body and physicality of O'Sensei, I see that mirrored: a stocky, squarely set man in his early years, who was, from what I can tell, a real scrapper from hell; to a wispy, flowing old man. His wizened elder years were set on the foundation of his youth, which was forged in fire.

But I may be totally wrong here and hold no authority. Each to their own.

Paul Smith
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Old 07-25-2003, 10:37 AM   #33
Qatana
 
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Perhaps the title should have been "3 simple " steps.

Aikido is simple.But is sure ain't easy.

Attaining enlightenment is simple. But it sure ain't easy.

I didn't watch the trailer but i'm fairly positive it doesn't mean " overnight Shodan" but, "here are some simple practices that will help you to live by Aiki principles".

However it is still about Practice.

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 07-25-2003, 12:51 PM   #34
jxa127
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Quote:
Larry Feldman wrote:
Unfortunately the mind is like a parachute, it only works properly when open.
Hi Larry,

I always thought that the mind was like a parachute 'cause you hope to heck you don't have to use it.

Just kidding.

All,

I saw the trailer and didn't think it was that bad. The uke's looked like they were diving a bit too soon, but the basic movements looked good.

I agree that easy steps are not as appropriate as simple steps.

Regards,

-Drew

----
-Drew Ames
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Old 07-25-2003, 01:58 PM   #35
shihonage
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Quote:
Paul Smith wrote:
I also happen to believe the way in to the "ancillary benefits" of Aikido - the broader goals of "the way to harmony" with all things, comes from a harder place than what I saw in the trailer (and seemingly promulgated in the '3-easy steps' idea). In other words, learning true peace comes from truly martial practice. Even using the very body and physicality of O'Sensei, I see that mirrored: a stocky, squarely set man in his early years, who was, from what I can tell, a real scrapper from hell; to a wispy, flowing old man. His wizened elder years were set on the foundation of his youth, which was forged in fire.
Thank you, Paul.

The above was very well put and sums up my sentiments precisely.
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Old 07-25-2003, 02:03 PM   #36
Alfonso
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por la boca muere el pez

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 07-25-2003, 02:09 PM   #37
paw
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Aleksey,

I imagine you're concerned about things like this happening.

Clearly instigating,

Paul
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Old 07-25-2003, 02:11 PM   #38
Paul Smith
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Sorry, my Spanish is rusty - by the mouth, the fish dies? Talk is cheap?

Aleksey, onegaishimasu, my friend.

And, Paul, GOOD GOD ALMIGHTY. I have it now - brew beer the aiki way...Ki-Ale-Do. I have found my mission!

Last edited by Paul Smith : 07-25-2003 at 02:14 PM.

Paul Smith
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Old 07-25-2003, 02:14 PM   #39
shihonage
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Quote:
paul watt (paw) wrote:
Aleksey,

I imagine you're concerned about things like this happening.

Clearly instigating,

Paul
That, and http://www.yellowbamboo.com/ .

P.S. I especially like how the "Golf Sensei" is actually wearing her Aikido hakama while teaching non-Aikido.

I guess she just doesn't feel like she can carry authority without the hakama.

Last edited by shihonage : 07-25-2003 at 02:26 PM.
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Old 07-25-2003, 02:50 PM   #40
Alfonso
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Quote:
Paul Smith wrote:
Sorry, my Spanish is rusty - by the mouth, the fish dies? Talk is cheap?
it doens't translate that way ,more like

"give someone enough rope.."

But yeah, talk is cheap aint it?

forum memory is long

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 07-25-2003, 02:55 PM   #41
Mark Shapiro
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Quote:
Paul Smith wrote:
a stocky, squarely set man in his early years, who was, from what I can tell, a real scrapper from hell; to a wispy, flowing old man. His wizened elder years were set on the foundation of his youth, which was forged in fire.

But I may be totally wrong here and hold no authority. Each to their own.
This is an interesting point. I think one of the questions showing up in this forum is really about what effective approaches to Aikido are.

For example, at Aikido of Marin, we do freestyle with students from the very beginning, which is a very non-traditional, but IMHO very effective way of training.

And as for O Sensei's life, he clearly found a softer style after years of hard style training, and it's often commented that the A Bombs had a lot to do with his enlightenment.

So, to learn Aikido, do we pick up where O Sensei started? Or where he left off? Somewhere in between? Many people hold that O Sensei in his later years started to act crazy, and many of his students apparently stopped training when he started "getting weird." To me, that's when it got most interesting.

It seems to me that the different styles are essentially different because they answer this question differently. I think all of the approaches are valid, but how are we to measure effectiveness? How do you know if your Aikido approach is working? What does that mean? What are we doing with our bodies and our lives...what for? I don't think this is really considered enough, not just in Aikido, but in any endeavor.

Thank you for listening!

Mark

P.S. I agree that perhaps 3 Simple Lessons makes more sense, but I think that 3 Easy sounds better, and makes an incredibly difficult art more accessible. (Let's notice the pride we have as practicioners of an exclusive, difficult art while we're at it)
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Old 07-25-2003, 03:08 PM   #42
Paul Smith
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From what Keith Moore Sensei told me, our late teacher, Fumio Toyoda Shihan, apparently once commented that many of O'Sensei's students would be dumbfounded when O'Sensei began to speak at length of the metaphysical aspects of his Aikido. Seeing few, if any, of his people "getting it," O'Sensei would call up someone and throw the hell out of them. My impression is this was his explanation, as if to say "Now - do you get it?"

We will all take that as we will. I take it to mean literally "by the mouth the fish dies." In other words, easy enough to talk enlightenment, perhaps in 3 easy steps.

Let's talk again after 10,000,000 suburi.

Paul Smith
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Old 07-25-2003, 03:10 PM   #43
Nacho
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I agree with Aleskey and Paul.

A lot of times I've been told that you have to train very hard, and forget about the philosophy while on the mat. There are people who want to throw uke with their little finger before learning the technique 'the hard way'. It's a pitty sometimes when they do this, uke says "OOOAA!!" and flies 2 meters by himself.

It's a martial art, for example, from ryote dori, if uke grabs you but when you are moving suddenly releases you, what do you do?smile and say "again please"?

PS: I hope that the title "3 EASY lessons" won't be a matter of marketing, it would be clearer to put what that lessons are from the beggining.
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Old 07-25-2003, 03:17 PM   #44
Nacho
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Maybe this subject would have to be in a whole another thread, but I don't like when people say O Sensei had super natural powers, that he was able to teletransport himself by his spirit, many students of him are always denying all this facts like Saotome and Tohei for example. But a lot of people keep feeding all this myths and all they are gaining is getting away the students from the concrete path. I don't understand all of this, O Sensei's life and Aikido history is enough interesting and great.
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Old 07-25-2003, 04:38 PM   #45
Erik
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Quote:
Paul Smith wrote:
From what Keith Moore Sensei told me, our late teacher, Fumio Toyoda Shihan, apparently once commented that many of O'Sensei's students would be dumbfounded when O'Sensei began to speak at length of the metaphysical aspects of his Aikido. Seeing few, if any, of his people "getting it," O'Sensei would call up someone and throw the hell out of them. My impression is this was his explanation, as if to say "Now - do you get it?"

We will all take that as we will. I take it to mean literally "by the mouth the fish dies." In other words, easy enough to talk enlightenment, perhaps in 3 easy steps.

Let's talk again after 10,000,000 suburi.
On the other hand, and I'm not going to look up the precise quotes, he said things about mastering aikido in 90 days, 20 years or a lifetime depending on the concept or technique in discussion. Then you get the people who say it's better to do one cut right than 1,000 wrong. Some of them prominent aikidoists.

You got it right though. You took a story, often done with quotes, decided what it meant and ran with it. Morihei Ueshiba quotes are nicely ambiguous that way.

Last edited by Erik : 07-25-2003 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 07-25-2003, 10:12 PM   #46
cindy perkins
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Interesting discussion. IMHO, nothing called "3 easy..." is both good quality and actually easy. It's like the 2 easy steps to enlightenment: Wake up. Stay awake.

That said, we can't know how this thing is until we see it. Since when can you trust a marketer to give you a real sense of anything? If the sensei has a good rep, let's not condemn his work without giving it a fair shake.
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Old 07-26-2003, 06:31 PM   #47
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Aikido wont help you become a functional human being, if you werent one before you joined your dojo you are going to need a lot more than Aikido to get you "functional".

Aikido makes you a functional fighter if and only if you practice it with the correct mindset and attitude, that is to become a great fighter.

When you are a great fighter you can decide what to do with your skill, this is where the peace, love and harmony stuff comes in.

The lentil eating, tree-hugging hippie-throwback types that seem to dominate conversations about Aikido need a swift, sharp reality check, I suggest you all find a judo guy with both a height and weight edge over you and try and "peace, love and harmony" him without getting tied into a pretzel.
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Old 07-27-2003, 10:42 AM   #48
Mark Shapiro
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Quote:
Wynand van Dyk (drDalek) wrote:
Aikido wont help you become a functional human being, if you werent one before you joined your dojo you are going to need a lot more than Aikido to get you "functional".

Aikido makes you a functional fighter if and only if you practice it with the correct mindset and attitude, that is to become a great fighter.
With all due respect, I think Aikido is a pretty poor martial art for learning to become a "functional fighter." I studied Ju-Jutsu (as O Sensei did) before I found Aikido and believe it to be a much more effective self-defense system that can be learned in a much shorter time.

That's not why I train Aikido, and I'm amazed why anyone would train Aikido to learn to fight. It's like learning calculus so you can bowl better, or something....

What do people think O Sensei meant when he said "Budo is not felling the opponent by our force, nor is it a tool to lead the world into destruction with arms. True Budo is to accept the spirit of the universe, keep the peace of the world, correctly produce, protect, and cultivate all things in nature."

And by the way, I'm a proficient fighter. I studied it long enough to see what it was doing to my mind and spirit. I was getting to be so good at winning that it became a part of who I was, and I brought that to my relationships (which doesn't work, btw).

I think knowing how to fight is great. Then, after 6 months, when you've learned that, let's all train Aikido and learn how to be in relationship. That's what the world needs IMHO, and that's what the 3 Easy Lessons is about.

"Therefore to compete in techniques, winning and losing, is not true Budo. True Budo knows defeat. "Never defeated means never fighting."

Winning means winning over the mind of in discord in yourself. It is to accomplish your bestowed mission."

I just don't see how you can say these quotes are up for interpretation...I think that a lot of people don't want to really look at what they'd have to give up to take these ideas on.

Thanks for listening
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Old 07-27-2003, 02:29 PM   #49
drDalek
 
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"Never defeated means never fighting."

Its a nice quote but nobody ever asks whether its a good thing. Its pretty much in line with the other pascifism fallacies, see here (http://www.philelmore.com/objectivism/pacifism.htm) why pascifism is evil.

lets analyse your other O'Sensei quote:

"Budo is not felling the opponent by our force,

(Things I have heard that I can relate to this: dont use strenght, dont clash with your opponents force, accept and redirect the attack etc...)

nor is it a tool to lead the world into destruction with arms.

(I assume this quote was uttered post WW2 when nuclear holocaust was still pretty fresh in the general zeitgeist of japan, also goes back to the whole thing of not elliciting and initiating the aggression)

True Budo is to accept the spirit of the universe, keep the peace of the world,

(Didnt the samurai like to think of themselves as a kind of armed peace-keeping force when they werent acting like psychopaths with 3 foot straight razors and chopping each other up?)

correctly produce, protect, and cultivate all things in nature."

(This could also refer to the person, the practitioner himself, I pretty much reckon he was not referring to gardening here, also, the kind of "I am too deadly to fight" ego trap is the direct and extreme opposite of cultivation.)

Arguing that jiu-jitsu / kung-fu / karate / judo / tai-chi etc ad nauseum is better than Aikido is pretty darn ignorant coming from an enlightened being like yourself. Maybe you need to organise some loose sparring sessions with dojo partners and people from other MAs to get some "cultivation" done.
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Old 07-27-2003, 08:30 PM   #50
YEME
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Quote:
Jo Adell (Qatana) wrote:
Anna how come you can have your opinion but Richard's students can't?

Please notice that they are not Putting Anybody Down.

Is making jokes about things people take seriously good Aikido?
a) richards students can have their opinion. i have no desire to change them. they are as entitled to love Richards work as I am to loathe it.

b) Watch the trailer, and then get back to me.
My comments were meant towards the product not any person.

c)is taking everything so seriously really good life practice? should there be things that are beyond question?

Last edited by YEME : 07-27-2003 at 08:39 PM.

Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome.
--Isaac Asimov

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