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Old 06-25-2003, 02:04 PM   #1
Paula Lydon
Dojo: Aikido Shugenkai
Location: Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 427
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Tongue follow through...

~~I love my Aikido training, but sometimes I wish my uke would follow
through on their attack with multilple strikes if I miss the first timeing/movement, or a full choke, etc. I've had years of prior Jujitsu training and our theory was that you'll likely be in a compromised position regarding posture or positioning if attacked and so your 1st response probably wouldn't work (or 2nd and 3rd too, just keep moveing!). Chances are you'll get hit, cut, pinned, choked...then what? How to handle a situation where you're already down or half out? I get together with my old Jujitsu buddies from time to time just to romp with what-to-do-when-I-inevitably-screw-up or gee-uke-isn't-politely-waiting-for-me.

How 'bout all of you out there?

~~Paula~~
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Old 06-25-2003, 02:21 PM   #2
Joe Jutsu
Dojo: Currently relocating
Location: On the Road, USA
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 100
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That sounds like a fun and interesting idea. I don't think I'm quite at the level of training where I would benefit too much from it. I also don't like the idea of being choked out, but I think you make some good points and am curious to see what other people think on this subject.

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Old 06-25-2003, 03:54 PM   #3
TheFallGuy
Dojo: Jyushinkan - Logan, Utah
Location: Logan, Utah
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 39
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This sounds very interesting. It would be fun and very practical to do. Like Joe, I don't think I'm up to that level quite yet. But it would be fun.

Several of our aikidoka like to do some things like this. So when I stall they come up with a punch or kick. Not full out but enough to get me moving, doing something. Sometimes its a lot of fun, but when I'm trying to figure something out it can be a pain.

I've heard in Gaku Homma's dojo in Denver they do something similar to what you are talking about. More of a full out anything goes type of thing. It sounds fun and a little terrifying. I'm sure I'm not up to that level yet.

I do think it is good sometimes that they do follow through and keep trying to get you until you've got them completely under control.

I came
I caused
I seized
----Chaos
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Old 06-25-2003, 06:23 PM   #4
Patrick
Dojo: Mississippi State Universty Aikido
Location: Mississippi
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 29
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My instructor always says nothing works. That you should be able to flow from one move to another.

Kendo is like star wars and everyone gets to be Darth Vader.
"Luke, I am your sensei"
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Old 06-25-2003, 09:10 PM   #5
Bronson
 
Bronson's Avatar
Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
Location: Battle Creek & Kalamazoo, MI
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,677
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Quote:
I wish my uke would follow through on their attack with multilple strikes if I miss the first timeing/movement, or a full choke, etc
Is it permissable in your dojo to ask uke to do this?
Quote:
I also don't like the idea of being choked out,
It's not that bad

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 06-26-2003, 05:44 AM   #6
kensparrow
Dojo: Methuen Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 97
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Quote:
Frank Olson (TheFallGuy) wrote:
Several of our aikidoka like to do some things like this. So when I stall they come up with a punch or kick. Not full out but enough to get me moving, doing something.
Some of the more senior students will do this when you train with them. I definitely prefer it that way most of the time because it keeps you from over thinking the technique and it makes you painfully aware of any suki. Sometimes you'll find yourself doing a really cool spontaneous response too!
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Old 06-26-2003, 07:19 AM   #7
Greg Jennings
Dojo: None at the moment.
Location: Springboro, OH
Join Date: Jul 2000
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Re: follow through...

Quote:
Paula Lydon wrote:
~~I love my Aikido training, but sometimes I wish my uke would follow

through on their attack with multilple strikes if I miss the first timeing/movement, or a full choke, etc.
You mean no one does that at your dojo? Egads. I *always* do it.

Maybe that's why the dojo I visit out of town think I'm a barbarian.

One of them actually called me "demonic".

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 06-26-2003, 07:38 AM   #8
jxa127
Dojo: Itten Dojo -- Mechanicsburg, PA
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 420
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Paula,

Come train with us; the commute shouldn't be too bad.

We do a lot of that at my dojo, and we've found that doing so really increases both uke's and nage's sensitivity to openings.

This is part of our overall philosophy on ukemi. We are taught that uke must continue the attack until he or she hits the mat. We view grabs or strikes as the first part of an attack. If nage does a good job, that's all uke gets. But if nage makes a mistake, then a second punch or reversal can happen.

Let me add some notes of caution:

(1) Be sure nage and uke both agree on this kind of training.

(2) As uke, it is really easy to get stuck in a mindset of foiling technique and getting a second strike, or reversal on nage. On the surface, this can be a good thing, but uke has an advantae because he knows what the technique will be and can plan where he'll expose an opening. Frustration for nage occurs quickly after that. Remember that uke is nage's teacher, and wants to teach nage the technique demonstrated by the instructor. So, each attack should be made in a sincere and focused manner (regardless of speed), and as though uke has no clue what's coming.

(3) Sometimes I'll feel as though I can do a reversal, I'll get it started, nage will notice, and he'll try to reverse my reversal. The end result is a pretty ugly wrestling match. Where I train, we often realize very quickly what's happening and stop immediately. What happens is that nage has an opening, but it's not big enough for uke to really exploit. Recognize this as soon as possible and avoid the wrestling match. That way, ego doesn't get involved as much. It is enough that nage couldn't do the prescribed technique.

(4) Don't do this all the time! Often as uke, we'll take the fall, and then get up and say something like, "I kind of dived for you that time. I felt you were open right here. . ." (and go on to demonstrate). Another thing to do is to simply stop ukemi if there's an opening, point it out, allow nage to readjust, and then continue the throw. This way, the technique is kept real, and nage can learn the little adjustments necessary to make a technique work.

Regards,

-Drew

----
-Drew Ames
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Old 06-26-2003, 09:19 AM   #9
Bryan Webb
Dojo: Aikido of Birmingham
Location: Trussville Alabama
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 26
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Greg Jennings,

I've never thought of you as demonic. AS long as you have your horns covered up.

Hope you are well.
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Old 06-26-2003, 09:36 AM   #10
mengsin
Location: malaysia
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 11
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Drew,

i totally agreed with you. Excellent!

mengsin
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Old 06-26-2003, 12:30 PM   #11
Greg Jennings
Dojo: None at the moment.
Location: Springboro, OH
Join Date: Jul 2000
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Quote:
Bryan Webb wrote:
Greg Jennings,

I've never thought of you as demonic. AS long as you have your horns covered up.

Hope you are well.
Hi Bryan,

Life's good here. Busy, but good. Talking to the Jacksonville State folks about attending the MMA seminar up there (if the date fits) and hooking up with them to do some weapons training.

I got the "demonic" comment in a softer dojo down South. Not Pensacola. One of the folks said to the other something like: "My God, I applied shihonage and he reversed it and tied me up like a pretzel. He had this demonic gleam in his eye the whole time." It ended up getting written into their newsletter.

It's hard at times to hold back. When someone steps in and gives me my center back, loses extension and gives me their back all at the same time, I just can't help myself.

Greg Jennings
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Old 06-26-2003, 01:20 PM   #12
Paula Lydon
Dojo: Aikido Shugenkai
Location: Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 427
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~~Exactly Drew, wonderful post! Thanks...and I'll buzz right out to train with you (actually, would love to)!

~~Paula~~
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Old 06-26-2003, 01:48 PM   #13
jxa127
Dojo: Itten Dojo -- Mechanicsburg, PA
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 420
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Quote:
Paula Lydon wrote:
~~Exactly Drew, wonderful post!
Thanks.
Quote:
I'll buzz right out to train with you (actually, would love to)!
Well, we have class tonight starting at 7:00. If you leave now, you should make it.

Regards,

-Drew

----
-Drew Ames
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