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Old 04-23-2003, 10:30 PM   #26
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Quote:
Jeffrey Rice (Jeff Rice) wrote:
Are there any particular exercises or stretches people think would be particularly useful in reducing the chances of a knee injury in aikido?

(no comments from the peanut gallery on knee injuries in running, I've heard them already. :P )

Jeff
Squats. Deadlifts. Lunges.

Although the impact forces in running seem to add up to much more than what you will apply with weighted squatting and lunging exercises, for some reason the studies show that weight exercises tend to do more to strengthen all the structures of the lower limbs. The important part is doing them correctly and allowing for adequate recovery, which can be tricky if your knee-stressing schedule is already loaded.

Incidentally, as with squats, much of the popular hype/belief about running being inherently bad for the knees is nonsense. In the absence of pre-existing pathology, biomechanical problems or running form errors, there is no reason that even fairly large doses of running should necessarily be detrimental to knee function.

In general, if you do a lot of running without knee problems, you are probably way ahead of most Aikidoka in staving off knee injury.
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Old 04-24-2003, 08:27 AM   #27
Jeff Rice
 
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Dojo: Aikido Westchester
Location: Bronx
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Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
In general, if you do a lot of running without knee problems, you are probably way ahead of most Aikidoka in staving off knee injury.
Thanks, that's a relief. My knees are in good shape, despite being a runner. (and the dire threats I continually hear over my bleak future of immobility)

You are right about the difficulty in working those exercises into my routine though -- balancing running and aikido is getting challenging. Especially since I enjoy both so much. So far, at least, aikido is making me sore in places I don't use much for running. I've been very, very happy for the cardiovascular fitness I have from the running. It's so much easier to focus on the techniques when I'm relaxed and "rested". (so to speak)

It's probably coincidental (since I haven't been studying aikido long enough to really effect a physical change) but my running times have dropped significantly since I started. Whatever the reason, I'll take it.

Jeff
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Old 04-24-2003, 10:52 AM   #28
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
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The way to incorporate resistance training would be to come up with a simple periodisation scheme. For instance, you would drop running volume a bit for 6-8 weeks and focus on 2 heavyish full-body resistance sessions per week, then cycle back to a running intensive schedule for a couple months, dropping down to one or two moderate maintenance resistance sessions per week, etc... Periodisation has the advantage of giving fitness elements/body parts some extra rest. It allows you to put your main effort into a selected activity/element while maintaining the majority of what you have acheived in other areas.

I used to do a fair amount of distance running and I found it gave me more than enough stamina for Aikido. Since then I got hooked on interval training and find continous aerobic training of any type interminably boring.

At first I kept up 2 or 3 20 minute runs per month, then I couldn't even take that. Now my HIIT sessions are usually 15 minutes or less, and my 'continuous' sessions are 10 minutes of moderate jumprope/run intervals in the park sandwiched between two 5 minute warmup/cooldown runs. Between the two workout types, I rarely get in more than 2 total sessions per week.

Yet, on the whole, I've found intervals even better for Aikido, and the exercise volume is very low, which means almost no injuries for me, where I was plagued with them when I was a runner. Plus there are other benefits which I won't go into. The bottom line is that I think high intensity interval training is the closest thing available to a miracle general health tonic and fountain of youth.
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Old 04-24-2003, 08:39 PM   #29
Mallory Wikoff
Join Date: Apr 2003
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I havent realy heard about the knee injuries... But i have had some big guy step on my foot before. That hurts!

if your enemy hungers, feed him
if he needs cloths, cloth him
in doing this you are piling burning coals on his head.
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Old 04-26-2003, 04:26 PM   #30
Dave Dean
Dojo: St Louis Ki Society
Location: St. Louis, MO, USA
Join Date: Mar 2003
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I managed to break a toe in my third introductory class. We have no gaps in our mats, it's just one big canvas surface. I don't even know when I did it exactly, so I chalk it up to freak accident
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Old 04-27-2003, 01:52 AM   #31
Anat Amitay
Dojo: Nes- Ziona, "the red house"
Location: Israel
Join Date: Dec 2001
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I guess common injuries are knees, shoulders as beginners, toes (depending on the mat and the weight of fellow aikidoka who sometimes might step on you...! ).

I think injuries also vary by the type of aikido a dojo does. Some work very hard, street- like, some are very soft and flexable and so on. I guess if a mat is very full and there are alot of techniques with movements and rolling there is a bigger chance to get hurt, but that can be reduced by working in groups instead of one on one.

It also depends on how people feel that day... If someone is angry, he might bring that on the mat and it's a cause for disaster. Most senseis warn against that and ask to leave personal life off the mat (as much as possible). But a person for himself- I think that when I train well- that is, move , roll, get up quickly, I am less prone to being hurt because the way my body responds is more with awareness. Instead of someone who takes his time to get up, hardly moves...

Sorry I might not have been too clear on what I meant.

Still, I think there are much less injuries in Aikido than most MA's or sports of other sorts.

Train and enjoy!

Anat
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Old 04-29-2003, 01:42 AM   #32
Juho Kokkonen
Dojo: Lahti Yuko Aikikai
Join Date: Apr 2003
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During our normal training session last sunday I somehow managed to completely screw up my ukemi from kokyonage and ended up lying on the mat with a broken clavicle(sp?)

I have only trained for about a month by now so I guess it was just a newbie-type disaster.. Well, it's nasty anyway, I guess I'll have to take a pause of at least a month from aikido, it's really killing me...
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Old 04-29-2003, 09:24 AM   #33
Qatana
 
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Dojo: Aikido of Petaluma, Petaluma,CA
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Welcome to the "newbies with shoulder injuries club"!I dislocated mine with my very first baby forward roll, today I am rolling from standing-on my good side!And after three hours swinging a bokken & jo on Sunday AM it is barely sore now.Now if we could get Fudebakudo to post the 75-count jo kata so i can practice...

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 06-01-2003, 05:24 AM   #34
Shelley
Location: Christchurch
Join Date: May 2003
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I rammed my fingers into the wall. But that's my own stupidity.

All men can fly. But, only to one direction.

Love
Shelley
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Old 06-01-2003, 03:05 PM   #35
Thor's Hammer
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Kevin one might point out that without building up a stable base of long running (8 to 13 mile runs every day for a month for example), you are more likely to get hurt interval training.
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Old 06-01-2003, 03:28 PM   #36
paw
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Bryan,
Quote:
Kevin one might point out that without building up a stable base of long running (8 to 13 mile runs every day for a month for example), you are more likely to get hurt interval training.
You'll need a base, but 8 to 13 mile runs as a base isn't necessary --- particularly if one's primary activity is aikido. Back in the day when I ran cross country, we never went over 6 miles, yet we did a lot of interval work and had no injuries that I recall.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 06-01-2003, 04:12 PM   #37
Kevin Wilbanks
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8 to 13 miles is insanely outside the range necessary to establish a base for interval training, especially since I advocate mixed intervals - running optional.
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Old 06-01-2003, 04:54 PM   #38
Kevin Wilbanks
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BB,

I've seen the types of training prescriptions you describe in older running books, but these were just common coaching protocols, not necessarily based on physiological necessity. The intervals were mostly aerobic intervals, non primarily anaerobic, and the goal was distance running. For people whose goals don't include distance racing, I see no sense in them.

For one thing, distance running of that volume is inherently much more of an injury-prone activity for most people than mixed intervals, even with fast running included. One of the big plusses of mixed interval training as I prescribe it is that the overall volume of any one repetitive activity is very low in relation to the benefits reaped. In fact, while I think almost everyone who is healthy can find a way to do intervals safely, I'd be willing to bet that less than 5% of the people who read this could run 8+ miles per day without significant injury troubles - I know I couldn't from experience.

As far as laying a mechanical foundation for the intense interval activities, the way to do that is to practice those activities at slower paces and gradually speed up. This can be done as one gradually ramps up the workouts themselves. Doing the activity very slowly won't be so useful for this, as the muscle fibers used, and the movement patterns are too dissimilar. Distance running and sprinting, for instance are so dissimilar that one has little to do with the other.

Actually, to tell the truth, I am skeptical that any kind of aerobic base outside of interval training itself is necessary to reap most of the benefits for non-athletes. The only reason to develop a pure endurance base via continuous aerobics is if the activities you pursue require the cultivation of this attribute. In most Aikido dojos, I'd say the need for this is marginal, as you can get this from training itself. Building up your endurance in terms of intense bursts of activity with relative rest periods is much more relevant.

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 06-01-2003 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 06-03-2003, 07:28 PM   #39
Thor's Hammer
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Thank you for your post, it occurs to me that I was always told that you needed to perform months of moderate (though not slow) pace running to build up connective tissues and tendons to resist the strain of faster training. This puts a different perspective on it, that it is necessary only to become fast, and actually opens you up to injury. I didn't know that!
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Old 06-03-2003, 08:49 PM   #40
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
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I don't think I said it is necessary only to become fast. If one were to perform HIIT as I have described it on these forums using solely sprinting as an activity, the person would probably run into injury trouble. I actually do not recommend sprinting as an activity to anyone unless they really know how to and know that they can relatively safely - in most cases this means experience under a track coach. Sprinting well is a learned skill.

However, if one rotates through a variety of safer activities like stationary bicycles, calisthenics, jumping rope, etc... I think one can start at a moderately high intensity level and go up to a very high level fairly quickly and safely without needing any kind of work on an aerobic base unless one chooses to. The best protection against chronic injury is to pay rapt attention to proper exercise form and monitor any pain signals coming from the body - massage or minimal diagnostic self-massage is a great way to get early warnings, and start to re-evaluate your activities.
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Old 06-04-2003, 01:18 PM   #41
Thor's Hammer
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Ah, I see, what you are describing is what I believe some people call 'circuit training'?
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Old 06-04-2003, 02:54 PM   #42
Kevin Wilbanks
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No. Circuit training is almost exactly the opposite. It is an attempt to combine resistance training and continuous aerobic training. The result is hal-baked on both counts, and is not a good form of exercise for any purpose beyond minimal, general health goals. I can't keep posting long descriptions of what HIIT is and how to do it. Please search the archives.
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