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Old 05-21-2003, 07:52 PM   #51
Qatana
 
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Dave, where did you find the information regarding "Ki' as a "Buddhist notion"?I've been a practicing Buddhist for 14 years and have never heard it refferred to as any part of Buddhist philosophy.

As i uderstand it, Ki or Chi is simply energy.Just like electricity-you can measure it, direct it,store it.there is nothing divine or supernatural about it.it is just energy.there is energy generated by water, by gasoline, by fission of radioactive elements. and there is energy that is used by living beings whish is merely the food we eat. so wouldn't it make sense that living beings, who are dependent on energy of one source or another to survive, also be generating some kind of energy as well?

Ki is the wind.

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 05-21-2003, 07:53 PM   #52
Jeff R.
Dojo: River Valley
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Quote:
Dave Miller wrote:
Somehow, I would venture a guess that there are many a good Aikidoka who would choose to disagree with that notion. There are plenty of Aikidokas who are quite gifted in their art who don't believe a word of what you said about Ki. By your statement, they have no "efficacy" so far as Ki is concerned and yet their Aikido still works.

It's not often that I have seen someone say something with such conviction while shrouding it in a veil of "it can't be disproven so just believe it".

Notion? I'm only restating something that people like O'Sensei, Tohei, Saotome, Buddha, Jesus, and any other major spiritual figurehead has said. If you or any other Aikidoka would dispute millenia of deep spiritual awareness (not religion), that's up to you guys.

Are you alive? Do you breathe? Do you have a spirit? If so, you have Ki. Do you have faith that you have Ki? If not, then it won't work through you effectively.

If your Aikidokas' techniques are working, congratulations--everyone can twist a wrist. If it's real Aikido, then they're calling Ki by a different name. If it's not at all spiritual (not Religious, mind you), then it isn't working on a spiritual level. Aikido's "goal" is to have us all taking it to the spiritual level of efficacy. Techniques are only tools to bring us to the point of not needing them any longer. They are limited.

You know what though? Whatever. If people are happy with practicing non-spiritual martial arts, why not just by a baseball bat and take up ballroom dancing? Kick a@@ without spiritual concerns and still swing someone around the floor.

Yeehah, we're all strong!!

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-21-2003, 08:06 PM   #53
Jeff R.
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Quote:
Jo Adell (Qatana) wrote:
As i uderstand it, Ki or Chi is simply energy.Just like electricity-you can measure it, direct it,store it.there is nothing divine or supernatural about it.it is just energy.there is energy generated by water, by gasoline, by fission of radioactive elements. and there is energy that is used by living beings whish is merely the food we eat. so wouldn't it make sense that living beings, who are dependent on energy of one source or another to survive, also be generating some kind of energy as well?

Ki is the wind.
There are several types of energies that make things function. On the physical plane, our major raw energy is electricity, which exists hand-in-hand with magnetism. Electricity can be measured, etc.

Ki is a spiritual energy. It cannot be measured (yet, anyway) as unconditional love, unless auric energy assessment counts. Ki plays a role in aura, but there is more to aura than Ki.

Anyway, with Ki and Electricity (atomic, synaptic, etc.), we exist and function, the two energies binding us betwixt the spiritual and the physical worlds. Most modern folk concentrate more on the physical, electrical, logical plane of existence, while others tap into the spiritual, intuitive, "supernatural" realm. The ancient Shaman-type from most cultures lived in the Duality, being in both realms at the same time. We call it enlightenment, or Satori in the discipline of Aikido.

So all of the Aikidoka who have no desire to embrace their inherent spiritual side, pretty much end up doing "neatly packaged Jiujitsu."

(If I can find who coined that phrase, I would gladly give credit.)

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-21-2003, 08:14 PM   #54
Jeff R.
Dojo: River Valley
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Quote:
Dave Miller wrote:
It's not often that I have seen someone say something with such conviction while shrouding it in a veil of "it can't be disproven so just believe it".

P.S.-- I have always challenged anyone in any forum (on- or off-line) to prove me wrong or right. I am happy to be educated and do more research all the time. But there are things that people challenge that are simply true whether we like it or not. I have already done the research on the points I make, I am not going to try and dig up twenty years of tidbits to satisfy someone else's curiosity.

Prove me right, we agree. Prove me wrong, we both learn something. I'm cool with it either way.

Besides, if the topic is something that can't be proven or disproven, the why the heck should we worry about it? We either have faith, or we don't.

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-21-2003, 10:14 PM   #55
Qatana
 
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.before science was invented, everything was spiritual.

in my short time in aikido i have become aware of myself enough to know that the reason i have trouble in blending practice is that i am still trying to make uke see MY point instead of me trying to see from their point of view.

you have a philospphy. we are all very aware that you have a philosophy. however every one of us has our own personal philosophy. sometimes they agree, sometimes they don't, sometimes we argue about it or drop bombs on each other over it.sometimes we use it to justify hurting other people.just because their philosphy does not agree.

but i feel like the uke that i can't quite get behind when i read your posts...

i also know myself well enough to know when i am looking for an argument, so i'm going to attempt to bow out of this discussion now...

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 05-21-2003, 10:33 PM   #56
Jeff R.
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Quote:
Jo Adell (Qatana) wrote:
.before science was invented, everything was spiritual.
Precisely. Purity.
Quote:
in my short time in aikido i have become aware of myself enough to know that the reason i have trouble in blending practice is that i am still trying to make uke see MY point instead of me trying to see from their point of view.

you have a philospphy. we are all very aware that you have a philosophy. however every one of us has our own personal philosophy. sometimes they agree, sometimes they don't, sometimes we argue about it or drop bombs on each other over it.sometimes we use it to justify hurting other people.just because their philosphy does not agree.

but i feel like the uke that i can't quite get behind when i read your posts...

i also know myself well enough to know when i am looking for an argument, so i'm going to attempt to bow out of this discussion now...
That, of course, is an option. And when someone--God forbid--attacks someone else on the street, that victim has the same option--to bow out. Unfortunately, the victim is left with the situation unresolved, or worse.

The thing is, I have no desire to fight or attack anyone. What I would like to see, in the true spirit of Aikido, is how we can all see the same point of view, come to a universal truth.

Everyone is very quick to defend the things that society does to nature, the complacency in their philosophy, training, or lack of either, the lack of scientific evidence that they feel should support non-scientific things, or things science cannot yet interpret.

Many claim to be Aikidoka, but show little regard for the essence of what Aikido means. Many follow religions and philosophies but then avoid issues when asked to reach deeply into those beliefs and look for that common thread that can bring us all together.

Bowing out is easy. That's what this society does--instant gratification, easy disposability.

I definitely don't want to argue, but I wish we could all find the common bond as Aikidoka, as fellows. Yet if productive discussion is going to revert to hypocracy, and frustrated cop-out, then what's the point in going on?

Help me understand. I'm only offering information that I have. If I'm missing something, enlighten me. But have the courtesy of listening with an open mind as well.

The best to you.

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-22-2003, 12:30 AM   #57
PeterR
 
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Small reminder.

We should be careful about overlaying our beliefs and preconceptions onto Aikido.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-22-2003, 03:09 AM   #58
mike lee
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know your art

Amen. Basing arguements on misconceptions will get you nowhere. Ki is a way of talking about energy (not to be confused with spirit, gods, or anything religious.)

If an aikidoists doesn't begin to develop a proper understanding of ki, then he's not learning his art. After all the character is central, quite literally, in aikido.

Last edited by mike lee : 05-22-2003 at 03:11 AM.
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Old 05-22-2003, 08:59 AM   #59
Qatana
 
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Dude, i wandered into your discussion, made a couple of comments & intended to wander on.

you are not offering information, you are stating your opinion.all i did was state my opinion.

is it good aikido to insist that someone stay in conflict when she has the option to end it by just walking away?

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 05-22-2003, 09:44 AM   #60
Jeff R.
Dojo: River Valley
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Quote:
Jo Adell (Qatana) wrote:
Dude, i wandered into your discussion, made a couple of comments & intended to wander on.

you are not offering information, you are stating your opinion.all i did was state my opinion.

is it good aikido to insist that someone stay in conflict when she has the option to end it by just walking away?
What conflict? What opinion?

Do you make it a habit to float around, drop in opinions and then walk away without taking on the discussion that most likely ensues?

If you have opinions, back them up. If you have information, offer it.

I haven't given any opinions (I'm aware of) because opinions start battles, and if you believe I've stated opinion, show me and I'll either clarify or rescind. How can you battle facts? Prove them wrong, prove them right, or offer useful information to change directions. You offered information about how Ki is perceived, I offered more information. If there is something more that I am missing, please fill in the blanks.

So, like I said, if your intention is to interject just long enough to ignore following up, why bother?

Help me understand your facts.

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-22-2003, 10:11 AM   #61
Qatana
 
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if my facts and your facts do not agree

there is conflict

if my truth and your truth do not agree

there is conflict

if my opinion and your opinion do not agree

there is conflict

i was not aware that it is a requirement on this site that if one steps into a thread to make a comment then one is duty and honor bound to remain in that conversation until everyone is in agreement with one person's information or another.

opinions are completely subjective and therefore do not require bcking up.or am i supposed to somehow prove that i think what i think or feel what i feel? like if i say "i think it is a beautiful day" i should be able to back that up somehow with solid evidence?i said "as i understand it...."not "this is the way it is..."

so again, In My Opinion, As I See It, Ki is energy.i am not trying to prove anything, change anybody's mind or keep tham in a conversation that is endless and pointless.i am making a statement and moving along to another conversation.

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 05-22-2003, 11:27 AM   #62
opherdonchin
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Jeff,

While I sympathize with some of what you say, I also find the way your are saying it to be awfully harsh. I think Jo is right when she (he?) says that you are confusing your opinion for a statement of fact. For instance, I happen to agree that the most useful way to understand Ki is a non-physical understanding. I also think of this is as 'fact' -- that is, something that anyone could see if they took the time and energy to figure it out clearly.

I also know that there are a lot of people who have taken time and energy and see it differently. Do I think I see more clearly and deeply than them? Honestly, sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. However, let's say, for the sake of argument, that I really do see more clearly and deeply than them. What of it. I can't change the way they see. The best I can do is do my damndest to understand the way they see, to immerse myself in it and accept it, and hope that this will lead to change for both of us. I think this is what Jo mean when he (she?) said "i am still trying to make uke see MY point instead of me trying to see from their point of view."

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 05-22-2003, 03:10 PM   #63
Qatana
 
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She

Q
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"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 05-22-2003, 04:28 PM   #64
opherdonchin
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sorry.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 05-22-2003, 08:52 PM   #65
Jeff R.
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Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
Jeff,

I also know that there are a lot of people who have taken time and energy and see it differently. Do I think I see more clearly and deeply than them? Honestly, sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. However, let's say, for the sake of argument, that I really do see more clearly and deeply than them. What of it. I can't change the way they see. The best I can do is do my damndest to understand the way they see, to immerse myself in it and accept it, and hope that this will lead to change for both of us. I think this is what Jo mean when he (she?) said "i am still trying to make uke see MY point instead of me trying to see from their point of view."
I'm not trying to CHANGE what anyone sees; I'm trying to give everyone something to look at, I'm opening a window.

All my life I've walked through the stores and the towns and I've seen people milling around, careless, blind to one another, locked away in containers and oblivious to the reality of the real world. We buy meat at the supermarket, and we never have to lay a finger on the cow. Medicinal herbs are weeds to be plucked and poisoned. Creatures like wolves with important roles in the ecosystem are all but eradicated, because they cost farmers too much money in livestock. We all tether ourselves to a rut of working for the advancement of the technology that literally kills the earth in its creation, and we strive for the almighty dollar to survive. It is the source of our sustenance, the ruler of our existence. And because of that, I've seen the waters polluted, the fish dead, the mutated amphibians, the stillborn birds, and the sick land. I'm afraid for my grandchildren. I'm afraid for your grandchildren.

Aikido was developed by a man who created it with a philosophy of preservation. The only way to preserve all life is to know it intimately, then we can love it, then we can protect it.

The cumulation of responses I receive from these Spiritual threads is indicative of a plague of denial from people who like the feel of the techniques, like the flow of the hakama, but disregard the essence of the Art--the essence that makes it what it is.

I see responses from people too stuck in technology, too scared to shed all the material desires and lose all ties to materialism. I see the responses of people who don't care about the grandchildren.

If anyone looks at the teachings of O'Sensei, Saotome, Jesus, Stalking Wolf--any spiritual teacher, they will see that I have only passed down the message. This isn't my crusade, it's not my opinion--it's what everyone claims to believe and uphold, but shows no tendency toward following through.

If you have something to say, back it up. I'm very willing to learn, but I will challenge your statements and make you prove that you are studied and stand by your convictions.

If you look behind you, I'm not there; I'm holding no threat to your head to make you type any words. If you're done--your done. If you would like to see how far we can bring each other in finding the answers, buckle up and let's get on with it.

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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