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Old 12-14-2000, 09:02 AM   #26
crystalwizard
Dojo: Aikido of Dallas
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Quote:
Creature_of_the_id wrote:

the van driver got out, looking a little angry, took a look at us and stopped. He then simply asked "are you insured" and when I politely replied yes he got back into his car without any other fuss and without creating a further scene.
*snicker* hmmmm maybe you've hit on the cure for Road Rage?

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Kelly Christiansen

A loving person lives in a loving world. A hostile person lives in a hostile world. Everyone you meet is your mirror
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Old 12-14-2000, 02:07 PM   #27
BC
Location: Chicago, IL
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We had over 17 inches of snow fall on the ground in the span of three days here in Chicago followed by sub-zero temperatures. I can honestly tell you that even if I had been previously inclined to wear my gi to the dojo in the past, I would not do it now! No way, no how! Besides being against tradition and common courtesy, it is totally impractical.

Robert Cronin
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Old 12-14-2000, 02:28 PM   #28
Chris Li
 
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Quote:
Aikidoka2000 wrote:
Sigh...Kids today.
Chris, every proper martial artist in Japan knows not to wear dogi outside of class.
try not to analize it to much. Just accept it. Are there exceptions? Absolutely. Mostly with kids and older people. Is it still wrong? I feel it is.
Have you really deeply thought about why most folks feel it is wrong?
Anyway, enough ranting.
-Tomu
I've lived and trained in Japan for almost ten years and I've encountered any number of "proper" martial artists who don't feel the way you do. Just accept it :-).

Best,

Chris
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Old 12-16-2000, 08:17 PM   #29
Gerardo A Torres
Dojo: Aikido West
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I know some aikidoka (many times my seniors) who wear their gi to class. Not to mention they treat their hakamas and uniforms in unthinkable ways.

I guess they either find it practical or believe is historically acceptable. But I ask; is such a small convenience worth all the attention and possible trouble you attract?


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Old 12-16-2000, 09:32 PM   #30
Chris Li
 
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Quote:
gerardo wrote:
I know some aikidoka (many times my seniors) who wear their gi to class. Not to mention they treat their hakamas and uniforms in unthinkable ways.

I guess they either find it practical or believe is historically acceptable. But I ask; is such a small convenience worth all the attention and possible trouble you attract?


I think that the "attention and possible trouble" issue is way overblown. It's a matter of common sense, I suppose - if you're walking across Times Square it may be an issue, if it's a 5 minute drive in a small town than it probably isn't.

Besides, weapons bags are probably more attention getting than a dogi anyway - just try carting around a naginata or a spear :-).

I'm not sure what you mean by "unthinkable". I think that, on average, Japanese people tend to be more finicky about care of dogi and hakama then westerners, but that has nothing to do with budo and everything to do with the fact that Japanese are pretty finicky in general.

Best,

Chris
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Old 12-17-2000, 04:13 AM   #31
Creature_of_the_id
 
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Ai symbol

Hi,
I dont have too much to say on the whole wearing Gi to the dojo hting, I dont think it is much of an issue. Unless you really feel the need to judge someone over somethining like this for your own sake.
but, I studied japanese for a little while, and my tutor told us many times that if non japanese follow japanese customs very closely, or understand them very well then they are considered strange. I cant remember the name that they use for people who do understand but it is something along the lines of 'strange foreigner'.
So it is a little difficult to insult the japanese by not stricly following their customs, as we are not expected too. and I guess this is what it is all about, etiquette. So wearing your Gi to class, even if not considered to be very good etiquette is not really going to cause anyone harm or major upset, so again it comes down to personal preference and personal disciplin.

Kev
"There is no spoon"
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Old 12-17-2000, 04:59 AM   #32
Chris Li
 
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Quote:
Creature_of_the_id wrote:
Hi,
I dont have too much to say on the whole wearing Gi to the dojo hting, I dont think it is much of an issue. Unless you really feel the need to judge someone over somethining like this for your own sake.
but, I studied japanese for a little while, and my tutor told us many times that if non japanese follow japanese customs very closely, or understand them very well then they are considered strange. I cant remember the name that they use for people who do understand but it is something along the lines of 'strange foreigner'.
So it is a little difficult to insult the japanese by not stricly following their customs, as we are not expected too. and I guess this is what it is all about, etiquette. So wearing your Gi to class, even if not considered to be very good etiquette is not really going to cause anyone harm or major upset, so again it comes down to personal preference and personal disciplin.

Kev
"There is no spoon"
You're probably thinking of "hen na gaijin". Of course, foreigners are often considered strange no matter what they do :-). One of the pluses of this is that foreigners in Japan can often escape some of the normal societal requirements if they want to.

I've lived and conducted business in Japan and in Japanese for a number of years, and Japanese people both expect and appreciate it when you follow Japanese customs, just like any other tight knit cultural group that you live among as an outsider. My hunch is that the kind of person that your Japanese tutor is talking about is the kind of person who attempts to be "more Japanese than the Japanese". For example, I know of a foreigner who lived in a restored 17th century farmhouse without electricity and cooked over a fire pit. He'd go on at length about how Japanese didn't understand their own culture - never mind that nobody in Japan has lived that way for several hundred years. It's sort of like moving to Alabama, instantly adopting a heavy southern accent and lecturing the local residents on how they've forgotten the ideals that made the south great. Not likely to be appreciated - just making a normal effort to follow the normal local customs is much more likely to get you accepted.

Best,

Chris
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Old 12-17-2000, 10:21 AM   #33
crystalwizard
Dojo: Aikido of Dallas
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This reminds me

Of something done in the SCA called Freaking the Mundanes.....i.e. wearing your costumes off of the event site and out into public....

With that said, a bit of serious commentary. In every society we make ourselves part of..whether it be the big society that makes up the place where we live or the small society that makes up the group of friends we play cards with on friday night or any other society in between...there are a set of customs we conform to. Things that we do becaue everyone else feels it's wrong not to do them that way. Things like putting the knife on the left side of the plate...taking your shoes off in the entry way...bowing from a seated possition...not wearing a hat to the table...all the various picky rules of ettiqute of any occasion you can name.
Things which in the long run really dont matter..doing them doesn't save anyone's life and not doing them doesn't kill anyone but things which make the socioty what it is and are as much a necessary part to fit into it as breathing is a necessary part of fitting into life itself.

All these things have a 'reason' or had a reason for why they were started to be practiced in the first place...and people that feel very strongly will be quite willing to get in your face and lecture you in all seriousness on WHY they must be followed. At the same time people who realy can't see a need to do them will be just as happy to get in your face and tell you why you shouldn't be a slave to the other people's ideas.

It boils down to....if you dont mind being looked at by those in the society you are in as someone who doesn't really fit...maybe avoided...maybe even kicked OUT of the society by the rest of the members...then dont bother with the customs.

However if you do mind...if you do actualy wish to be a member of whatever society it is you're spending time being part of...then by all means bother with following the customs in the manner the rest of the members follow them.

[Edited by crystalwizard on December 17, 2000 at 10:42am]

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