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Old 05-14-2003, 06:41 AM   #26
PeterR
 
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Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Japan
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Quote:
Michael Ellefson (MikeE) wrote:
Peter,

Please don't put words in my mouth.
Mike don't think I did. Paul quoted me from another thread so I probably took a bit of baggage from that one and others past when I posted here. Sorry if that came across a little twisted but being from the Tomiki camp I've heard the argument often enough that its become a pet peeve.

My point was made. I thought I was very carefull to make it clear that I wasn't particularily referring to your dojo (see the last paragraph).

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-14-2003, 07:43 AM   #27
Grappler
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 31
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Re: BJJ

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
The problems became obvious from the start. BJJ is a sport. It is a form of empty hand fighting. Police officers, like the Samurai of old, are walking weapons systems. It is absolutely the last thing an officer wants to do to go to the ground and grapple. It may happen but it isn't what he wants. Many of the folks who studied BJJ initially found themselves on the ground defending their firearms, oc sprays etc. The standard control positions favored by the BJJ folks do not protect the weapons on the belt very well at all.
True, but if you ARE taken to the ground you gotta know what to do. A lot of times you dont get the luxury of choice. And BJJ is ALSO a sport. Not only. BJJ tactics used in a pure BJJ tournament are much different from tactics used in a no-holds-barred fight, and different from restraining/law enforcement situations. If you use sport BJJ tactics in the wrong situation, thats your fault, not BJJ's
Quote:
But if I were in a multiple attacker situation I'd take Aikido over BJJ any day.
Using either would get you beaten down. You dont want to fight multiple attackers. If there are any obstacles, like doors, stairs, poles, use them, keep moving, strike fast (just quick punches , nothing fancy) and run. If you are in an open space, forget it, just run, surrounded = lost, whatever martial art you use wont help you... unless you are significantly stronger and more skilled than your attackers, but in that case they wouldnt have attacked you in the first place
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Old 05-14-2003, 08:19 AM   #28
paw
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 768
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Peter,

Sorry to drag you into this thread. Remind me that I owe you one (or several, given inflation).

George,

I tried to address two things with the post you quoted:

1. That there are a group of individuals who are committed to teaching bjj as combat

2. There are "rules" in aikido

It turns out that Mike and I disagree on both points, which is all well and good. I'm fine with agreeing to disagree about both issues.

By the by, I know you teach DT, so does

ISR Matrix ... I'd be interested in your thoughts on their approach.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 05-14-2003, 11:34 AM   #29
George S. Ledyard
 
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Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Quote:
paul watt (paw) wrote:
Peter,

Sorry to drag you into this thread. Remind me that I owe you one (or several, given inflation).

George,

I tried to address two things with the post you quoted:

1. That there are a group of individuals who are committed to teaching bjj as combat

2. There are "rules" in aikido

It turns out that Mike and I disagree on both points, which is all well and good. I'm fine with agreeing to disagree about both issues.

By the by, I know you teach DT, so does

ISR Matrix ... I'd be interested in your thoughts on their approach.

Regards,

Paul
a) I am sure that there are folks doing BJJ from a combat standpoint. It is just relevant to remember where all this stuff came from. In the days of the koryu there were complete systems of combat which always included some grappling or ground fighting component. It is obviously crucial that people be able to handle themselves on the ground. But the grappling components weren't arts in themselves. So it is important that for folks like Law Enforcement the concept is the same. They need to be taught a unified system. Their grappling must presuppose that both the subject and the officer are armed. It must allow for multiple assailant tactics. It should have very low level force appliaction as well as officer survival combat application. I haven't seen any single system that has all of this but I have seen people creating them by taking what they need from the various systems that are out there and putting them together to form a whole.

I do not believe there are rules in Aikido but there are "conventions" that we follow in training. If people do not put some attention on on going beyond these "conventions" they can be limiting in what one sees as possibilities. I remember looking at a student in class one night and seeing that he had lost control of his partner and was on the ground with him I said "this is where you grab his head with both hands and bang it on the pavement". I have to say that there aren't a lot of Aikidoi dojos I have seen where one might have heard that but mine is one.

The system shown on that website is quite nice. It looks a lot like what Officer Don Gula from the King County Sheriff's Department has worked out up in Washington. They call their system "arrestling" and have been promoting it for the police games. It is very similiar in technqiue and in terms of how they train. It looks like a great system but I doubt there will be too many departments who will actually adopt such a system. This is only because it actually looks like those guys really train. Most departments won't do anything that realistic. If there is a guy from the system who already has an "in" at his academy or department then there is hope.

My stuff has a bit more use of the arms and head as you might expect from an Aikido based system but overall we do a lot of the same stuff.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 05-14-2003, 12:21 PM   #30
paw
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 768
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George,
Quote:
I remember looking at a student in class one night and seeing that he had lost control of his partner and was on the ground with him I said "this is where you grab his head with both hands and bang it on the pavement". I have to say that there aren't a lot of Aikidoi dojos I have seen where one might have heard that but mine is one.
And we love you for it!
Quote:
It looks like a great system but I doubt there will be too many departments who will actually adopt such a system. This is only because it actually looks like those guys really train. Most departments won't do anything that realistic.
Isn't that the truth. And still how many full page ads begin with "learn this deadly art that is taught to law enforcement"....

Warm Regards,

Paul
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