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Old 05-02-2003, 11:54 AM   #26
Adam Garrison
 
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Mike,

Absolutely!!! I grew up in a few rough neighborhoods and watched as, time after time, people with karate, TKD, Kapkido, ju-jutsu training get their arses handed to them by tough-as-nails kids with street fighting experience. Having, unfortunately, had to defend myself from some of these scrappers, I feel like I developed a marginal ability to judge what would and would not be effective technique "on the street". There are certainly instances where you may not understand the mechanics of a throw or pin when you are a beginner, but you still ended up on the ground against your will when your partner put you there.

I love Aikido & believe that O-Sensei offered us the perfect model for the perfect martial art. O-Sensei cross-trained, and I recommend the same to everyone...but stick to your game. Aikido, when applied properly, allows someone to control a bigger, faster, stronger opponent regardless of what attack they choose to employ. The catch is...it is up to everyone to make their own Aikido work! That means, that you can train at the feet of O-Sensei himself for ten years and still walk away with nothing of martial significance, if you have not taken what is given, internalized it, and made it your own. I have seen excellent aikidoka come out of very poor dojos & terrible aikidoka come out of highly reputable schools. I certainly do not wish to offend anyone who practices a softer style, but without martial efficacy, THERE IS NO BUDO!

I understand that different people study Aikido for different reasons, but if you are one of those individuals, don't come up to me & tell me that the art that Ueshiba-Sensei worked so hard to give us "isn't really a good choice for real self-defense" and that I should study karate or judo if I want my technique to be effective. Aikido IS effective because I have used it, and I can feel it working everytime I get on the mat. Ask some of the deshi who lived with the Ueshiba family if they think HE was combat effective.

I agree with Mike...If you are not satisfied with what is being offered at your dojo, then try to find somewhere else, or if that is your only option - do the best that you can to make your technique stand out. People will notice when they are used to falling down for each other & you suddenly introduce them to a real application of technique. The two gentlemen I have the privilige of training under are both modern day warrior poets & they inspire me all over again everytime I set foot on the mat.

So if you are among the group that practices because it is a cool opportunity for a social hour, or because it appeals to something other than your desire to participate in warriorship, then that is perfectly fine. But stop making excuses for aikido & why it doesn't work! They are YOUR EXCUSES... Aikido requires none.

Respectfully, but with righteous indignation...

Adam

Adam Garrison
Okinawa Aikikai / US Dojos - Washington DC
Systema DC / NVA Study Group
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Old 05-02-2003, 12:56 PM   #27
bob_stra
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This is a question that will never be resolved because the focus is on the wrong thing.

Could you bust a guy's wrist nikyo? Yes you could.

Could YOU *actually* do it - do you have the pre-requsiste understanding of how a resisting opponent moves, the dynamics of movement, how to set up the opporunity?

What's more, could YOU gain this from YOUR aikido training?

It's not the techniques, it's the methodology.
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Old 05-02-2003, 01:33 PM   #28
Mel Barker
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I'd be willing to pay $100 just to never again see the word "street" in an aikido forum ever again.

Mel
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Old 05-02-2003, 01:41 PM   #29
Michael Neal
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Wink

street
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Old 05-02-2003, 01:55 PM   #30
paw
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So there's this dojo across the street ....
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Old 05-02-2003, 02:00 PM   #31
akiy
 
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I'm sure I could just do a simple 's/street//gi' somewhere in the code...

-- Jun

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Old 05-02-2003, 03:10 PM   #32
Hanna B
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ROTFL
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Old 05-02-2003, 04:42 PM   #33
shanman
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I grew up in the streets and have been in some fights and saw a lot of fights. I've never seen a trained street fighter. Every fight I've seen or been in the attacker just throws blows indiscriminantly with no skill...weapon or not. Don't overrate the street fighter any one who is sound in 10/12 self defense techniques can neutralize or defeat an attacker. Aikido is selfdefense. If you read O'seisei's history that's one of the primary reason he started it. I find this is true with all martial arts.
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Old 05-02-2003, 05:40 PM   #34
Peter Klein
Dojo: Aikido Kreis Koeln (Germany)
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i am a relativ newbie but our dojo is very social and does lots of things that dont work in a fight. cause like nearly all dojos in cologne,germany they are inspiretated by the french softer/flowing style. But I think it should be effective anyhow
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Old 05-02-2003, 10:38 PM   #35
sanosuke
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Quote:
whats the most street effective aikido style?
RUN, PETER!.....RUUUUN!
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Old 05-03-2003, 12:21 AM   #36
opherdonchin
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So, now that we've all agreed that the question was silly, which, I think, the thread-originator also agreed with up front, I'm still sort of curious about an answer.

That is, given that wide-strip-of-concrete-with-houses-on-either-side (wsocwhoes, from now on) effectiveness is mostly an issue of the individuals talent and commitment and experience, and given that what is taught in a dojo depends more on the teacher than on the style, and given that there any number of other ways that this is a silly question, what would be the most wsocwhoes-effective style of Aikido. Is Yoshinkan more likely to be wsocwhoes-effective (all other things being equal) because its emphasis on basic technique will lead to proper movement even in times of stress? That would be my guess even though I've never trained Yoshinkan.

I guess I'm just trying to derail the conversation into some variant of the wsocwhoes question that might not have been beaten to death.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 05-03-2003, 12:25 AM   #37
opherdonchin
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I had a conversation a few years ago with a friend of mine who studies Ninjitsu.

Friend: Our sensei said that the Ninjitsu philosophy is that if you've gotten into a fight you've already done something wrong ...

Me (interrupting): ... Yeah, our sensei says the same thing. ...

Friend (continuing the thought): he says that you really should have snuck up from behind and killed the other guy before he even knows your there.

Me: ....

Last edited by opherdonchin : 05-03-2003 at 12:28 AM.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 05-03-2003, 01:30 AM   #38
bob_stra
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Quote:
Mel Barker wrote:
I'd be willing to pay $100 just to never again see the word "street" in an aikido forum ever again.

Mel
In US dollars?

STRE....EEK

ST.....EAK

STRE..et theatre

STRe.....ET car

STR.....atoshphere

;-)

Last edited by bob_stra : 05-03-2003 at 01:34 AM.
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Old 05-03-2003, 09:53 AM   #39
Mel Barker
Dojo: University of Louisville Aikido Club
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Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
...Our sensei said that the Ninjitsu philosophy is that if you've gotten into a fight you've already done something wrong ...you really should have snuck up from behind and killed the other guy before he even knows your there.
In aikido, I'd suggest a sniper rifle. Less chance that the target may catch you stalking.

Now if the target visits this forum, I'd just tell everyone he started a thread on Aikido's effectiveness and let everyone bash him to death.
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Old 05-03-2003, 11:10 AM   #40
Ron Tisdale
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To the person who asked about yoshinkan...

For some people the yoshinkan teaching method and focus on basics would be better.

For some people those same things would be worse.

Depends on a lot of things; teacher, student, partners, focus, desire, body type....

Too many things to count. Just more reasons why the topic is silly.

I don't think my aikido would be at whatever level it is with competition thrown in...just not my bag.

But my brain says one of THE best methodologies for success in a chaotic environment would have to be randori as practised in judo or shodokan aikido. I've dabbled a tiny bit in judo, never done shodokan, so by my own reasoning, I'm not in the best place for "effective on the street". go figure.

If you think yoshinkan is hard...well, its hard to learn (like any other aikido), but hard / soft (as someone else said) doesn't really describe the differences very well.

Think precise, detailed, structured, focused...things like that describe yoshinkan better than hard.

One of the softest styles of aikido I've trained in (not ki society) was one of the most difficult workouts I've ever had. They could keep going for hours, days. Finally, I had to admit I could not. Was it good aikido? I thought so. Was it "street effective?" At this point, I couldn't give a rat's ***. But then, I'm already satisfied that at whatever level I'm at, I'm safe enough already. So now its time to focus on doing aikido well.

Ron Tisdale

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-03-2003, 12:55 PM   #41
Jeff R.
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Why is this difficult? Aikido is street effective; but are YOU street effective? Anyone who has to ask the question either doesn't understand the principles of the techniques and applications, or hasn't been in any self-defense situations, or both. If you are unsure about efficacy, PRACTICE THE TECHNIQUES AGAINST RETRACTED JABS, UPPERCUTS, AND HAYMAKERS. The flow is different, but the principles are exactly the same. Musubi is crucial.

If you want to kick someone's a@@, quit Aikido and buy a baseball bat; if you don't care about the practical application of Aikido in resolving conflict, you may enjoy ballroom dancing as well--no conflict, only harmonious movement; if you are only worried about effectiveness, get off the computer and ask someone to give you some "street" attacks.

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-03-2003, 11:32 PM   #42
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I don't think my aikido would be at whatever level it is with competition thrown in...just not my bag.

But my brain says one of THE best methodologies for success in a chaotic environment would have to be randori as practised in judo or shodokan aikido. I've dabbled a tiny bit in judo, never done shodokan,
Ron - just to point out I haven't done shiai in a long time but I do do randori. Not that great in either but I'm trying to remedy that. Shiai is to be experienced offering lessons in its own right but two guys training each other is what randori is all about. Absolute chaos its not but it sure comes closer to that than anything you will find in other styles of Aikido. I personally have no interest in competition, not my bag either, but the advantages of randori are obvious to all that have experienced it. I know Aikikai dojos whose shihan have introduced the system.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-04-2003, 01:07 AM   #43
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Robert H.G Burrell (Col.Clink) wrote:
Ki-Aikido? I thought all schools taught Ki-Aikido, or at least have some ki involved
Don't worry I caught the but no - at least not with Tohei K.'s take on it. It sure was the source of one of his problems with Ueshiba K. and his view is definately different than many of Ueshiba M.'s uchideshi. A lot of it came not from Ueshiba M. but from another organization that Tohei K. belonged to.

Ki means many things. Therefore you do hear/read people like Ueshiba K., Shioda G., Tomiki K. use the term but that does not mean it has the same nuance. I personally have never heard the term used in a dojo in Japan but of course my experience is limited and in the case of my particular style there is another more specific term which some other styles/teachers use the term Ki.

The thing is, we are not studying Ai Ki Do but Aiki Do. The compound takes on a specific meaning which may or may not be related to its component parts.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-04-2003, 05:19 AM   #44
tedehara
 
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Re: fight or flight

Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
...My first teacher in aikido had also lived in Chicago, where he was a semi-professional boxer. He also trained in the same style of karate as me. His approach to and application of aikido was "no nonsense." We were all acutely aware of the damage that could be done by a trained striker, a knife, or a gun. We had all seen our share of street violence....
What is the name of your first teacher? Is he still around?

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
About Ki
About You
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Old 05-04-2003, 07:48 AM   #45
Col.Clink
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Don't worry I caught the but no - at least not with Tohei K.'s take on it. It sure was the source of one of his problems with Ueshiba K. and his view is definately different than many of Ueshiba M.'s uchideshi. A lot of it came not from Ueshiba M. but from another organization that Tohei K. belonged to.

Ki means many things. Therefore you do hear/read people like Ueshiba K., Shioda G., Tomiki K. use the term but that does not mean it has the same nuance. I personally have never heard the term used in a dojo in Japan but of course my experience is limited and in the case of my particular style there is another more specific term which some other styles/teachers use the term Ki.

The thing is, we are not studying Ai Ki Do but Aiki Do. The compound takes on a specific meaning which may or may not be related to its component parts.
Hi Peter,

Admittedly It was "tongue in cheek". (glad you got the wink!!)

Yes I do know about Tempu Nakamura and the other influences Koichi Tohei Sensei brought to his school. What I was refering to, was that "Ki" is not limited to just Ki Society aikidoka, but all aikidoka, Just with differing perspectives depending on what lineage they are from.

I've recently had the pleasure of training with a Godan from Aikikai, and although he was 2.5 times my age, he had what I call, good Ki.

By Ki I mean: spirit, energy, demeanour, life force, power, etc etc etc.

Others may call it technique, experience, knowledge, etc etc etc, and that's ok by me too ( not that anyone needs my approval )

He even mentioned that he had never heard the term "ki" mentioned anymore than a passing comment in his years of study.

I am still not experienced enough to understand all things Aiki, hopefully having an open mind and talking with people such as yourself,reading these threads and of course practice, I can at least experience a smidgen of it before I return to the source. But honestly, I just enjoy Aikido, I have not yet figured out why!!

There is an interesting article here with Curtis Sensei from Hawaii. Well, may or may not be of interest you.

Cheers Peter

Rob

"Excess leads to the path of Wisdom"
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Old 05-05-2003, 02:25 PM   #46
Michael Neal
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Street
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Old 05-05-2003, 09:14 PM   #47
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Robert H.G Burrell (Col.Clink) wrote:
But honestly, I just enjoy Aikido

Quote:
There is an interesting article here with Curtis Sensei from Hawaii. Well, may or may not be of interest you.
Book marked it - will read later - thanks.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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