Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-24-2003, 10:52 PM   #1
johanlook
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 31
Offline
training one side only

Alright so I've always been one who trained both sides but what do you think of this article? I can see some truth in it, but has anyone else found that this is true?

http://home.attbi.com/~thunderswan/training_article.htm
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2003, 11:11 PM   #2
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,054
Japan
Online
Of course one of the reasons for the success of Kano's Judo against the other Jujutsu schools of the time was that they trained both left and right.

But yeah I used to believe that you should work your weak side twice as much but the end result would be that that weak side is stronger but your dominant side is not where it could be. However, I really don't think over the long term it makes any difference. At the moment I try both sides equally.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2003, 12:04 AM   #3
DaveForis
Dojo: UW-L Aikido Club
Location: La Crosse, WI
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 38
Offline
Interesting.

One thing I'd like to add is that the Feldenkrais method doesn't work on only one side. As I understand it (from reading one book, so I'm no expert) he stresses paying attention to the sensations as the bodywork is being done on one side of the body, then in your mind feel it being applied to the other side afterwards as a sort of visualization (only kinesthetic) meditation. In other words, it may be physically be done to only one side, but there's gotta be conscious processing to get it to the other side. Of course, enough conscious processing of something, and it gets to your subconscious. Perhaps from there your subconscious can do the work of differentiating.

Of course, anyone who finds this really interesting should probably look into the brain differences between right-handed and left-handed people, specifically that left-handed people tend to be more ambidextrous and why. Neat stuff.

Hmm. I'm still gonna practice on both sides, thanks. Definitely food for thought, though.

Behind every flaw in technique is a flaw in the mind or spirit
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2003, 12:18 AM   #4
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
Offline
Sorry to often reference a different practice but in basketball there are all kinds of folks who can only go to their right. They learned to go to their left, if they ever do, by practicing with their left. Note all the great hitters in baseball who only hit from one side of the plate.

I'm not saying that having a dominant side is bad. I can see that. Rather that the idea that you will develop equal ability on both sides, by practicing only one side, doesn't jive with the world as I've experienced it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2003, 01:56 AM   #5
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
Offline
Re: training one side only

Motor co-ordination is my Jeopardy special topic, so ... <cracks knucles>

The article takes the idea out of context. By learning on one side, you can better transfer that knowledge to the other side, in less time than learning two discreet movements on two "discreet sides".

And anyone who says Feldenkrais is done on one side only has never done Feldenkrais ;-)

(other than that, our resident Kinesiologist will be along shortly no doubt. Over to you Jane)
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2003, 07:21 AM   #6
MikeE
 
MikeE's Avatar
Dojo: Midwest Center For Movement & Aikido Bukou Dojos
Location: Hudson, WI
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 407
Offline
Many times when a student is having issues with a principle or technique I will have them train exclusively with their weak side for 5-10 minutes. When that side gets it just a little bit...the dominant side gets a kick start.

Mike Ellefson
Midwest Center
For Movement &
Aikido Bukou
Dojos
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2003, 07:25 AM   #7
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
When you are only a flea hanging on a horses tail, it helps to know whether the horse is dead or not.

I know that the Japanese method is to blindly follow your instructor - and that is fine when you have good reason to do that. Unfortunately we rarely see or here of our instructors fighting for their lives outside. I think in the modern era we should question why we do things (as long as this doesn't waste time in the dojo) - I wish more scientific method was actually applied to the martial arts.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2003, 07:32 AM   #8
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
P.S.

I have a student who has done western (french?) fencing for many years. For a large man he is extremely fast in Japanese fencing - however he finds it very difficult to not use his right foot forwards because this is the way he trained! I think training on one side is rediculous.

Also, what 'side' do you train on? e.g. although we might do ikkyo from a right handed attack all the time, if we go to do sokumen-irimi-nage/kokyu-nage and uke tries to block our hand, we then have to do ikkyo on the blocking hand, which is their left hand. Training equally on both sides seems not only necessary for balancing the body (and Ueshiba did say to train both sides equally), but is also essential for self-defence in the long term (though maybe not essential in the short term).

I would be extremely interested Peter if you could tell me where it says that Kano was better because he trained just on one side - I have never heard this before.

Ian

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2003, 09:25 AM   #9
Qatana
 
Qatana's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Petaluma, Petaluma,CA
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 834
Offline
every dance form i have studied is two-sided. every yoga style i have studied is two sided.

the two tai chi forms i study are both one-sided...always wondered why not turn it around & get both sides but my sensei says there are specific neurological patternings that are set up which wouldn't work if reversed...i'll leave that one for Jane as well, cause i don't quite Get it...

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2003, 06:10 PM   #10
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,054
Japan
Online
Quote:
Ian Dodkins (ian) wrote:
I would be extremely interested Peter if you could tell me where it says that Kano was better because he trained just on one side - I have never heard this before.
You misunderstood - Kano's people trained on both sides, the jujutsu people did not. I am sure this is written down somewhere but it's pretty common knowledge. I'll see if I can find it but no promises.

As far as scientific training methods that was also a Kano contribution. He was a big fan of introducing western training methods into Judo (not sure if the left/right thing was part of that). You see the same effect in the Shodokan Aikido training methodology, Tomiki was heavily influenced in this regard by Kano.

Last edited by PeterR : 03-25-2003 at 06:14 PM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2003, 03:45 AM   #11
Kelly Allen
Dojo: Friends Dojo
Location: Winnipeg
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 190
Offline
I'm glad this topic was brought up because I have a related question. I personally prefer working both sides. It's just double the fun for me. My question is, why do we Aikidoka work both sides of a throwing technic yet when we pick up a jo or a boken and it's Kata is one sided? (Or do we work on the other side as we advance in rank?) I have thought of this in the past and have even played with the jo kata where at the end of the kata I begin it over again in mirror image. Not as easy as it sounds by the way.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2003, 08:40 AM   #12
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,850
Offline
I don't know about other folks, but we very often do paired kumijo on both left and right sides. I've also done things like the 13 jo kata on both sides, if you will. In my mind, the jo is an "ambidextrous" weapon.

The bokuto is based off of the ken which is used only on the right side. You can find explanations on why this is in various places as it's a frequently asked question.

However, I have personally done suburi on both sides with a bokuto. I also have heard of aikido people who practice with a bokuto on both sides since, as they put it, they want to become better at aikido, not kenjutsu...

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2003, 12:37 PM   #13
Doug Mathieu
Dojo: Aikido Bozankan
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 64
Offline
Hi

During a seminar one time our Shihan made a comment about training one side vs. both sides equally.

His remark was to the effect that we train both sides equally in regular practice but that is more of a health benefit.

If we trained more for practical purposes he suggested to stick to one side only. He did not elaborate but I believe that had more to do with most people only having so much time to train and if they want to be really good at something they needed to devote more time to fewer variations. You might not be as versatile but what you do know will be much better.

When I did Judo even though we learned throws from both sides we rarely practiced them equally. Anyone who was serious about competition devoted the majority of their time on at most their two best techniques so they could apply them fast and well.

Personally I like working both sides and feel it has been very beneficial to my co-ordination, etc.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2003, 07:19 AM   #14
James Trueman
Dojo: Kioido Aikido / Aikijutsu Kai
Location: England
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 10
Offline
Our style has advocated training that leans toward working from the right for two fundemental reasons.

1: Aikido is seen as an art that is derived from a form of unarmed defense to be used when a weapon would not be appropriate or is not available. The core concepts within the movements are not too far from those carried out with the basic samauri's weapon, the katana - which is argued would be trained with in right posture. So rather than relearn unarmed combat, it is taught in right posture as that is how armed combat would have been taught and memorised by the body.

2: Whether left or right handed, it is suggested that most assailants will attack with their right hand first, so neutralising that quickly will deal with the attack.

Because of this most of the time we have trained from right posture, dealing with uke in right posture with an irimi technique and uke in left with a tenkan.

Appreciating the above reasons, I advocate training both right and left, irmi and tenkan to enable flexible responses and now have the opportunity to influence that in the club. I also advocate begining in a neutral posture which ever side uke attacks and whatever response is forthcoming, who walks around in formal stance and what good would in be in a scrape?
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2003, 08:40 AM   #15
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 813
Malaysia
Offline
Bill (or was it joe) "Superfoot" Wallace had a back injury that prevented him from using his ermmm right leg i think. So in his dojo, they all trained with a thousand kicks on each leg. For him, he did 2 thousand kicks with his left.

So much so that in time his left kicks were so fast, that they were almost impossible to dodge or block. Faster then a punch apparently. He used this to remain champion of full contact karate for many years...

All this from memory, so forgive my mistakes. But the essence of it makes sense to me.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2003, 01:32 PM   #16
jimvance
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 199
Offline
We train predominantly on one side in some of our kata, and equally on both sides in other kata. The first two kata a beginner learns are "symmetrical", followed by two kata that are "asymmetrical". Although we spend a lot of time on the right side in the "asymmetrical" kata, we are taught to train using a one to four ratio, left-side to right-side. The idea is somewhat the same as what the article above mentions, with the distinction that if you train on one side predominantly you will need less time to develop the same patterns on the subordinate side. This might be a little different than the author's teacher's claims of not having to train on the subordinate side at all and still reaping the same benefits.

If we haven't done left-side kata in a while, it takes a bit of a mental shift, but it is not hard to adapt. As a matter of fact, most people in the yudansha ranks say that their kata is much "cleaner" on their subordinate side, as they tend to stick to the pattern and have fewer bad habits from trying to figure out what the pattern is.

Jim Vance
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2003, 07:23 PM   #17
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,054
Japan
Online
Hi Jim;

Doing some of the Goshin no kata on the opposite side from normal last week. Boy did I feel incompetent.

It just works out that I do the Junanahon on the right more frequently but I do try to keep the left up to par.

Lesson this Sunday I will have the eight tachi waza of the Goshin no kata done both left and right.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2003, 02:24 PM   #18
jimvance
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 199
Offline
Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Doing some of the Goshin no kata on the opposite side from normal last week. Boy did I feel incompetent.
Gosh, do I know how you feel. That's what I love about kata, I always feel incompetent at whatever level I am training at, new expectations and all.

An aside for Peter: Not sure if you might know this, but is the Shodokan Goshin no kata also called the "Koryu Dai San Kata"? (Trying to imagine what it is you guys are doing, as we have our own "Goshinjutsu no kata".) I heard Clark Sensei mention the two different names during our annual January gasshuku, which was about the Jiyushinkai Goshinjutsu no kata.

Jim Vance
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2003, 05:17 PM   #19
Frp
Dojo: Charles River Kokikai
Location: Somerville
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 14
Offline
I was born ambidexterous so I'm having a hard time getting the point of the thread.



I doubt anyone has to great an idea of how right or left handedness works. It seems to me to be far less a defined quanty than people would have you think--at least for me.

I my life I've observed that those that want you to favor one side over while teaching (writing, baseball, working with tools) are just trying to make life simpler for themselves.

I'm glad my school practices both sides (except for weapons kata). And I hope no one gets any bright ideas.

PS Does anyone know what percentage of the population is ambidexterous? I've never been able to find out.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2003, 07:27 PM   #20
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,054
Japan
Online
Hi Jim;

More than what you asked follows but there are (strange though it may seem) people unfamiliar yours and my world view

The Koryu Dai san is the only one of the Koyru Dai series which was explicitly designed. The others Ichi, Ni, Yon, Go and Rokku are basically a stringing togeather of techniques. Some see a theme but generally this was not the intent. The first 14 of the Dai yon are of course the nage no kata (ura and omote) which are themed but the following 11 are as I said strung togeather.

The Koryu Dai san also known as the Koryu Goshin no Kata (Old style self defence) is along with the Junanahon the core of the Shodokan syllabus. The whole thing is tested for San dan which is considered the end of the Aikido course. Of course by that time we have gone through numbers of techniques outside of these and there is much more to learn but it is central.

I think only the first 24 techniques can really be called Goshin (in the modern context) as the other of the 50 or so are kumi tachi, tachi dori and yari dori but then again it is called the Koryu Goshin.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2003, 12:56 AM   #21
jimvance
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 199
Offline
Answer me these riddles three....

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
The Koryu Dai san is the only one of the Koyru Dai series which was explicitly designed.
That's interesting. What do you mean exactly? Don't quite follow you....
Quote:
Peter wrote:
The others Ichi, Ni, Yon, Go and Rokku are basically a stringing togeather of techniques. Some see a theme but generally this was not the intent.
Don't you think that they were trying to show some sort of principle, or were they just used to develop different levels of interaction between waza?
Quote:
Peter wrote:
The first 14 of the Dai yon are of course the nage no kata (ura and omote) which are themed but the following 11 are as I said strung togeather.
What you call the Nage no Kata we call the Shichihon no Kuzushi. We practice it a lot as a warm-up kata; it is really one of my favorites.
Quote:
Peter wrote:
The Koryu Dai san also known as the Koryu Goshin no Kata (Old style self defence) is along with the Junanahon the core of the Shodokan syllabus. The whole thing is tested for San dan which is considered the end of the Aikido course.
What do you mean by the San kata and Sandan being the "end" of the course. Don't really follow (but am fascinated with the different perspective!).

Jim Vance
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2003, 01:42 AM   #22
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,054
Japan
Online
Re: Answer me these riddles three....

Jim;

I also was reading much more into the various katas than there really was. Unifying principles, levels of interaction and the like but apparently, historically, quite a bit of thought was put into the Junanahon and the Koryu Goshin no kata (dai san), far less into the others. I was corrected. Lowel Wilkensen wrote a description of the place of the various kata which I liked and I had also heard that Ichi and Ni were sort of first tries but in the end it was much more simple than I believed.

In the Shodokan system, Sandan is the biggy. The difference between Shodan and Nidan is quite small when compared to between Nidan and Sandan. The later is considered a major point - not that your Aikido learning is finished - but a minimum requirement to become a JAA instructor. There is always more to learn and all you have to do is look at the curriculum to see that it doesn't stop there as far as testing is concerned - it sure doesn't get easier. When I say course its more like you have now finished Aikido 101 - next. We have a somewhat similar, though more minor feeling for Shodan, for example but definately not for Nidan.

All the techniques found in the other kata sets are required at the various kyu and dan grades or practiced as complete kata or individually but the importance of Dai San is central. In fact, for those unable to do randori (age for example) the Dai Yon can be substitued at Sandan but the other kata sets are not tested as a whole.

There are just too many people at Honbu to practice the Nage no kata during every class as warm-up. What we do is one step back called the gonosen kuzushi also known as the nanasen kuzushi. These are the six balance breaks seen in common between the 14 naga no kata and the last two of each (ryote dori). Not really seven - can't understand it either.

My own dojo has plenty of space. One of the things I want to do is substitute gonosen kuzushi with the nage no kata. My assistant and I did them this morning but my beginner students aren't there just yet.

Last edited by PeterR : 04-20-2003 at 01:50 AM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2003, 08:25 PM   #23
jimvance
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 199
Offline
Cool. Thanks for the info Peter. It's neat to compare and contrast the two different perspectives. Thanks again and sorry for sorta highjacking the thread.

Jim Vance
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2003, 05:45 AM   #24
Roger C. Marks
Dojo: Tetsushinkan London
Location: London
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 25
United Kingdom
Offline
Quote:
Douglas Mathieu (Doug Mathieu) wrote:
Hi

When I did Judo even though we learned throws from both sides we rarely practiced them equally. Anyone who was serious about competition devoted the majority of their time on at most their two best techniques so they could apply them fast and well.

Personally I like working both sides and feel it has been very beneficial to my co-ordination, etc.
Hmmm. There are a lot of issues here and two sided training v single side perfection is a complex subject.

If we are considering Shiai (contest) then there are perhaps two major considerations. Training theory as expounded by, for example, Jichi Watanabe a past judo champion and a noted proponent of the scientific study of judo,is that repetition of complex movements develops a neurological 'short circuit, allowing for an enhanced reaction and response. Perhaps analogous to the mushin 'open' or 'no-mind' principle of kendo. The second consideration is that contest is two people (in a sports situation)and the reaction of the proposed uke may also be enhanced by repetative training. If the tori (nage) is proficient in both side techniques, then the reaction time of uke is slowed because there is a finite evaluation time that is extended when there is a choice between the two sides and also the 'learned reflex' may only work to a single side. This obviously gives an advantage to tori.

Sport is different to martial art and I would suggest that at the highest level in budo one side/two side is not an issue as budoka shihan are all boy scouts (motto 'be prepared').
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2003, 02:47 PM   #25
Dave Miller
 
Dave Miller's Avatar
Dojo: UCO Budo Society
Location: Oklahoma
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 204
Offline
Speaking as a biologist:

I am a little dubious of the notion that if you train one side long enough then the other side will just "automatically learn" how to do it. For a simple test of this principle, try writing with your "off" hand. I have been training my left hand for around 30 years in the skillful art of writing. Nevertheless, I can't for the life of me write worth a darn with my right hand. I can't eat or anything else. Why is this? Because of two things: "handedness" and the way the brain works.

Most people are either right or left handed. A few people (usually left handers) are ambidextrious to some degree. This notion of "handness" extends to our feet, our eyes and our ears. As a result, we tend to always hold the phone up to the same ear and we tend to sit on the same side of a classroom (because we see and hear better using one eye and ear). This has huge implications for aikido.

I am left handed and left footed. Therefore, techniques come much easier to my left side than to my right side. I can take advantage of this and apply the principle in this article by learning techniques with my right side. It is much easier for my left side to pick up things "automatically" than for my right. However, I still have to learn them for the left side, regardless of how many times I do it with the right.

As for how our brains work, as you probably know, the left side of the brain controls our right side and vice versa. The two sides of our brains do communicate and share info but some of us are better at this than others. There is no guarantee that learning something with one side makes it "automatic" for the other side.

While this principle has some merit, I think that I will continue to train on both sides and teach my students on both sides.

DAVE

If you're working too hard, you're doing it wrong.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Nage/Uke Dynamic - Guidelines senshincenter General 47 02-20-2006 05:20 PM
Culture of Martial Mediocrity? L. Camejo Training 160 02-03-2006 01:25 AM
out side training Chocolateuke Training 5 06-27-2005 09:22 AM
covering your openings rob_liberti General 71 05-25-2005 07:10 PM
Holes in the Real Attack senshincenter General 59 08-21-2003 04:49 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:28 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate