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Old 04-17-2003, 11:17 AM   #1
kensparrow
Dojo: Methuen Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Anger over a dead horse

It seems like the most common beat-a-dead-horse thread on Aikido message boards is the one about is-aikido-effective-on-the-street. From what I've read, many of the aikido detractors are really vehement about the issue. My question is simply, why? All the aikido practioners I know are very respectful of other martial arts (usually because they used to practice them) so I don't understand the apparent intense desire to "debunk" aikido. Even if aikido was all smoke and mirrors, why would a TKD or a BJJ guy care? Does my practicing aikido somehow hinder their ability to train in their art?

I would really like to know why people expend so much energy over this.
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Old 04-17-2003, 12:17 PM   #2
W^2
Join Date: Jul 2000
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Talking If you're ever attacked by the 'street'...

...Aikido will teach you how to resolve the matter peacefully. Anyone, who has fallen down, can see the benefit of that!

There are myriad's of reasons why individuals - regardless of affiliation - behave this way, which I think is self-evident upon reflection. The quick answer is this:

'For those who understand, no explanation is necessary; for those who do not understand, no explanation will suffice'.

~Ward
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Old 04-17-2003, 01:09 PM   #3
cindy perkins
Dojo: AikiDog Dojo
Location: Pittsfield, New Hampshire
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I think it's partly because well-done aikido can look fake. Heck, in my beginner's experience, if I do something well as nage it can even feel fake to me! That's because it's so effortless if I actually find my center and join well. So if there are no punches and kicks that look like they'd hurt, no grunt of effort to show how strongly someone is being hurled, it looks like uke is throwing him- or herself and the art is more dance than combat. Until, of course, you're uke...
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Old 04-17-2003, 01:15 PM   #4
Veers
 
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Dojo: Shinkikan Aikikai Aikido of Corpus Christi
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Quote:
Until, of course, you're uke...
Bingo. :]

The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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Old 04-17-2003, 02:45 PM   #5
Alfonso
Join Date: Aug 2002
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here's another theory just for fun..

Because we don't have competition fighting and some people feel insecure about about their abilities.

In the beginning the people who studied Aikido were seasoned martial artists. They didn't have so many questions on their abilities, so they didn't feel this questioning so much, they knew what worked or not from their own experience. These people fired the imaginations of the younger crowd, these MA Giants inspiring visions of invincibility.

So take a regular guy doing Aikido as their first time martial art, never gets to fight, is really into the flow, etc etc..

Then maybe when they start feeling competent they meet a friend who does X, Y, Z , takes a friendly challenge and lo and behold they get their ass kicked! It follows that Aikido doesn't work.

Then it follows that since many Aikidoka feel differently , they all are wrong because they never take it to "the street" , they all practice in fairyland. So Aikido must not be a street effective art. Then because this is so disapointing you have former Aikidoka..

The people who through experience feel ok about their Aikido think, well they're just a bunch of wenies now a days.. and the people who don't care about this IF situation just shrug. The people who feel insecure then get all hot about it, because you are pitting believers against unbelievers, specially former disillusioned believers. Maybe they go to the new kickass MA in town, and there they gain new security from their more "realistic" (i mean you get to beat up people (and get beaten too)!) practice.

hah, say these dastardly villains, I'll go back to Aikido BB, because

a) wanna prick bubbles

b) Web Aikidoka like to get drawn into endless arguments

c) it's safe..

you see these aiki-fairies are all mild and peaceful, so you can bait them all year round and if you ever meet they'll still want to be friends..

how about that for a likely story?

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 04-18-2003, 12:03 AM   #6
PhilJ
 
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I honestly believe this outlines a key difference between aikido and other MA's.

Fighting-oriented styles focus on that <1% of your life you are in a brawl. Aikido focuses on the other 99-to-100%.

This is not to imply other MA's are ineffective where aikido is, and vice-versa. But rather, to illustrate that I believe this comparison is much like the apples-oranges.

Just some late-night thoughts.

*Phil

Phillip Johnson
Enso Aikido Dojo, Burnsville, MN
An Aikido Bukou Dojo
http://www.aikidobukou.com
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Old 04-18-2003, 03:23 AM   #7
bob_stra
Location: Australia
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Re: Anger over a dead horse

Quote:
Ken Sparrow (kensparrow) wrote:
My question is simply, why?

Even if aikido was all smoke and mirrors, why would a TKD or a BJJ guy care? Does my practicing aikido somehow hinder their ability to train in their art?

I would really like to know why people expend so much energy over this.
(1) People are insecure. They want to know that what they do is somehow worthwile, that it will somehow make them special. And thus immune to all the unpleasant stuff that happens in life (eg: death, pain, fear etc). This point fuels the remaining 3 =>

(2) One way of making yourself "special" is to "defeat" other people. Verbally or otherwise.

Also

(3) For years and years, TMA folks have claimed dealdly, no touch, instakill techniques. Folks got sick of the hyperbole. Which plays on...

(4) Snooty aikido folk who've never walked a mile in some-elses shoes. For example -

http://tinyurl.com/9sli

(Please be aware that RMA is the "drunken Friday bar" of martial arts groups. Expect nasty language and cutting remarks ;-) )

It's really quite simple. Lack of respect on both sides from a few meatheads.
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Old 04-18-2003, 03:28 AM   #8
bob_stra
Location: Australia
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Whoops. I should have just said

"Bingo" to Alfonso.

Yet another reason for aikidoka to cross train.

(which brings up another thread idea: best arts to cross train in)
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Old 04-18-2003, 08:13 AM   #9
MikeE
 
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Dojo: Midwest Center For Movement & Aikido Bukou Dojos
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The philosophy of Aikido vs. other arts is the big thing. (As said above).

i.e.:

One of my students brought a friend in last night who is a Tae Kwon Do guy with a 3rd dan in Shorin ryu. When I introduced myself he seemed very disturbed when I didn't quake in my boots at his pedigree. Rather, with a smile, I invited him on the mat to train with us. I told him he would love to meet my student of 7 years who is a yondan in Shorin ryu.

The student that invited him (who has been with me for a couple of months) said he wanted to test me...that he said that aikido is nothing compared to karate.

I went to change, and he was gone.

I was bummed, I figured I would do defenses against kicks and punches with his help.

Now, this is not the first time (and I'm sure not the last time) this happened. I just think this illustrates Aikido vs. other arts. I think our lack of ego and easygoing style is very disconcerting and maybe threatening at times.

How very Aiki.

Mike Ellefson
Midwest Center
For Movement &
Aikido Bukou
Dojos
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Old 04-18-2003, 09:51 AM   #10
Sven Groot
 
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Re: Re: Anger over a dead horse

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich (bob_stra) wrote:
And thus immune to all the unpleasant stuff that happens in life (eg: death, pain, fear etc).
Now that would be cool, if Aikido could make me immune to death

I wonder how that works? Perhaps when Death moves in for the kill, I step of his line of attack?
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Old 04-18-2003, 10:14 AM   #11
bob_stra
Location: Australia
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Re: Re: Re: Anger over a dead horse

Quote:
Sven Groot wrote:
Now that would be cool, if Aikido could make me immune to death

I wonder how that works? Perhaps when Death moves in for the kill, I step of his line of attack?
Well, that's *not* exactly what I was tryin' a say ;-)

I prefer Red Dwarf philosophy -

Rimmer: "You can't wack Death over the head with a bat!"

Lister: "If it comes near me, I'll rip his tits off"
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