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Old 02-05-2003, 08:54 AM   #26
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'Acting vulgar and violent' is an extremely subjective phrase. Since we don't know the facts of what the lady witnessed, how can a judgment be made? It would be better for one to look at the students this teacher has and see how they are; are they mindless thugs with no manners, or are they admirable examples of people we'd hope to be like one day? Could a rotten teacher produce good students like that?
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Old 02-05-2003, 10:47 AM   #27
achilleus
Dojo: West End Aikikai
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[quote=" (on the side- when of the mats, a lot of my best martial arts teachers could be pretty crude. What do you expect from people whose livelyhood is teaching MARTIAL arts? This ain't tea ceremony folks)[/QUOTE]

I was with you until your side comment. I live in St. Louis which has two important things pertinant to this discussion. 1) is a master teacher of the Yagyu Shinkage-Ryu (ken) and 2) is the Missouri Botanical Gardens. Our sister city in Japan is Suwa and every year their delegates come to the largest Japanese garden outside of Japan for a festival. Many martial arts demos, good food, great fun. The yagyu master I mentioned, being a fleunt speaker of the tongue, acts as liason for the delegates from Suwa and occasionally demonstrates some of the Muso ryu-jo kata, but his prime responsibility is assisting the formal tea ceremony.

my side comment - he doesn't charge or make his living from teaching, and he's a helluva nice guy: sword, jo or tea!



DA
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Old 02-05-2003, 12:32 PM   #28
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I think the real problem is that it is unclear what this sensei actually did that offended the first poster's friend.

Vulgarity doesn't sound THAT serious - unless it means flashing or say "XXXX me" to a twelve year old or something. I'd probably not want to train under someone if they were extremely or habitually vulgar.

And violence? What exactly did this guy do? Beat someone up? or just threaten to beat someone up? Under what circumstances? Was anyone hospitalized?

Vulgarity combined with violence, if manifesting itself physically, and not just verbally, is more or less sexual assault, which is criminal behavior.
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Old 02-06-2003, 12:44 AM   #29
Kelly Allen
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Quote:
Hanna Björk (Hanna B) wrote:
I don't suppose that you study maths because of the ideals? You are saying two different things here Kelly.

Most of us want to be reasonably comfortable with the people around us. That's one thing.
Actually Quantum Physics has been the basis for alot of ideals. But all I was saying was that I wouldn't want someone who I disliked to teach or tutor me anything.

Everyone, however, has their flaws and querks. (I probably have more than my share ) One must be comfortable with those flaws if he/she expects to learn from that person.

If I wittnessed my instructor grabbing every womans ass that walked by while we were haveing beer waza then I wouldn't be comfortable training with him afterwards for the simple reason that I wouldn't respect or like him afterwards.

If on the other hand he told me a racial joke, (which I wouldn't laugh at). That in itself wouldn't keep me from going to his dojo. It's all relitive.
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Old 02-06-2003, 10:06 AM   #30
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Well maybe this belongs in another thread, but I don't care for the idea of racial jokes tolerated by my teachers... if they allow groups of people to stand around 'joking' like that it would ruin the atmosphere of our dojo and keep away many of the very people we want to attract to aikido.
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Old 02-06-2003, 10:19 AM   #31
mike lee
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here to learn?

I never saw a shihan in aikido make a pass at a woman or make a racial joke. I think we would do well to follow their example.
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Old 02-06-2003, 10:22 AM   #32
Edward
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Re: here to learn?

Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
I never saw a shihan in aikido make a pass at a woman
Me neither, but I've heard about one who does
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Old 02-06-2003, 11:03 AM   #33
Mel Barker
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Re: here to learn?

Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
I never saw a shihan in aikido make a pass at a woman...
Well I sure have! Not a pretty sight.

Shihan are people too. From many reports I've heard, some wouldn't make my friends list. Just like the population in general.

Mel Barker
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Old 02-06-2003, 11:43 AM   #34
mike lee
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So who are the bad shihans of aikido?
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Old 02-06-2003, 02:31 PM   #35
akiy
 
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I don't think there's any need to be naming names, Mike.

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Old 02-07-2003, 04:00 AM   #36
Kelly Allen
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Quote:
() wrote:
Well maybe this belongs in another thread, but I don't care for the idea of racial jokes tolerated by my teachers... if they allow groups of people to stand around 'joking' like that it would ruin the atmosphere of our dojo and keep away many of the very people we want to attract to aikido.
This is my point. What wouldn't bother me to the point of not going to their dojo might bother someone else to the point that it would keep him/her out of their dojo and vice versa.
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Old 02-07-2003, 04:09 AM   #37
Kelly Allen
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Re: here to learn?

Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
I never saw a shihan in aikido make a pass at a woman. I think we would do well to follow their example.
Grabbing a bunch of womens asses I don't consider making a pass. If the shihans who have wives didn't make passes at women how did they court their wives?
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Old 02-07-2003, 07:15 AM   #38
paul keessen
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very difficult, but well we are all just people! who knows what high grade teachers do in their free time? do you want to know? i don't! but on the other hand, if he or she teaches the wyof aikido to us, he is also expected to live like this, because otherwise it would be fake! but wel remeber that we all have some weird moments!!

good luck

haha i don't know if this helps...it's difficult:P bye bye
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Old 02-07-2003, 07:19 AM   #39
paul keessen
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there is one more thing i wouldlike to say...

we as students always expecht our sensei's as peoples who are perfect.

but last time there was a very high ranked sensei who did a seminar at our dojo, he is very good and even studied under o sensei.

When we were training he climbed out of the window to smoke a cigarette!! i was SO suprised, nut also a bit dissapointed! but later i thought..well okay...he is a human being..haha it was pretty funny actually!
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Old 02-07-2003, 07:52 AM   #40
paw
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Quote:
Grabbing a bunch of womens asses I don't consider making a pass.
Maybe laws are different where you are, but where I live "grabbing a bunch of womens asses" would be sexual assault.
Quote:
If the shihans who have wives didn't make passes at women how did they court their wives?
Maybe by having a life outside the dojo? There's also a positional power issue. Certainly student/teacher relationships can work, but there may very good reasons why so many companies, government agencies, schools and training facilities do not allow such relationships.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 02-07-2003, 10:20 AM   #41
Edward
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Quote:
paul keessen wrote:
we as students always expecht our sensei's as peoples who are perfect.
I think this is an eternal problem. We as citizens would expect our politicians to be perfect. As human beings, we would expect our religion leaders to be perfect... etc.etc.

But the truth is, we should not discredit what they teach because of what they do. Maybe our teachers, politicians and priests do not live by the principles they advocate. But these principles are still valid, and if the leaders are unable to implement what they preach in their daily lives, it is not a reason for us to quit.

I think that it says somewhere in the bible that people should listen to the preechings of the priests, but should not emulate their deeds. Maybe this is also true in aikido.
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Old 02-07-2003, 11:50 AM   #42
E.J. Nella
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Interesting point Edward, made me stop and think for a few moments. It looks like you are saying we should take what our teachers say, and not pay attention to what they do. I think you are correct in saying teachers and other leaders are human and prone to human frailties. My issue is, I could read a book on the philosophy of Aikido or "Peaceful Reconciliation" and get as much! What I want to do is bring what I practice physically, into my daily spiritual life. To do this, I believe one needs a Sensei that has done the same. Even though I know that how they achieved this, and how I will hopefully do the same may be slightly different. I believe many of us learn quicker and easier by observing and then mimicking. Some can learn by hearing or reading and then attempting to embody the desired behavior, but I think there are very few of us that are able to do this. I also think there are few of us that can successfully learn from someone that teaches to do something they are unable to do themselves. It doesn't give them much credibility.

Now every once in a while our teachers/leaders will stumble. We have to expect this, not be surprised by it. It is our practice to forgive and forget or attempt peaceful reconciliation. This does not excuse someone whose behavior is offensive to us and they do not even attempt to correct it. If someone errs, and continues to err in the same way, with no attempt to correct the offending activities. We need to examine whether or not we will be able to ignore the inconsistency of saying one thing and doing another.

I have seen the "spirit" of Aikido in 95% of all the Sensei's I have ever personally been in contact with. It inspires me when I see someone "walking the walk" instead of just "talking the talk". It exhibits to me it can be done, and is being done!

E.J.
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Old 02-08-2003, 12:27 AM   #43
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For smoking or climbing out of a window?

Where is it stated "Thou shalt not do either" in Aikido.

Not picking on you personally Paul but this is a classic example of someone layering their own conceptions of what Aikido should be.

My contention is that if you are interested in finding a guru, especially one who fits your preconceptions, your Aikido journey will be far less successful than if you enter the game looking for an interesting teacher of the technical side and letting the Do grow.
Quote:
paul keessen wrote:
there is one more thing i wouldlike to say...

we as students always expecht our sensei's as peoples who are perfect.

but last time there was a very high ranked sensei who did a seminar at our dojo, he is very good and even studied under o sensei.

When we were training he climbed out of the window to smoke a cigarette!! i was SO suprised, nut also a bit dissapointed! but later i thought..well okay...he is a human being..haha it was pretty funny actually!

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-08-2003, 04:58 AM   #44
Kelly Allen
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"LET THE DO GROW" Hey Peter I like that! Can I use that on a T-Shirt? It's really catchy!
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Old 02-09-2003, 05:28 PM   #45
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Once it's here it's public domain - go for it. and Thanks
Quote:
Kelly Allen wrote:
"LET THE DO GROW" Hey Peter I like that! Can I use that on a T-Shirt? It's really catchy!

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-22-2003, 01:32 PM   #46
cindy perkins
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I believe the right answer depends very much on why you study Aikido. I have studied fencing and archery and mathematics in the past, and as long as my teacher did not do something so offensive that I would have problems being near him or her, it didn't matter. I was there to learn skills and techniques. I also go to meditation retreats to study the Dharma and practice. I hold my teachers to high standards, because they are there to teach me ways to be a better person, and I need to see that these ways have worked for them.

I study Aikido for spiritual reasons as well as physical. Sensei is human, occasionally interpersonally clumsy, but always with good or peaceful intentions at heart. When angry, he is sharp but courteous. When a student seems embarrassed, he is quickly concerned; when he makes a mistake, he owns it. I do not ask perfection of my spiritual teachers, but I do ask that they do their best to represent the teaching.

I believe that in my daily life, I cannot help but be a teacher to those who observe me or ask me questions. I do my best to hold myself to the ideals, too... I fail often, but I try!
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