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Old 01-10-2003, 12:20 AM   #51
L. Camejo
 
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Hi Larry;

I have the sneaking suspicion that either Nariyama reads these forums or has someone report to him what's being discussed.
Frankly Peter, that is a very scary thought.
Quote:
Kevin made a very good point though. You just don't see the use of pressure point strikes in UFC type events.
I have a couple of feelings on this point - Was never really a fan of the UFC, since it is not really as No Holds Barred as some may like to think, just glorified WWE to me, and can be staged in the same way. As such, I don't subscribe to the view that it is a point of reference for judging the realism of unarmed combat, in which there are absolutely no rules. It is however, pretty entertaining and you may see some interesting technique now and then. As far as pressure points in UFC, check out the fouls section[/quote] here. Like I said, not no holds barred.


Quote:
So Larry my question is - as an Aikido shiai man whose well versed in pressure point theory, how easily would it be to effectively incorporate these strikes.
As you know Peter, strikes aren't allowed in our shiai either. However, presses and rubs can be applied. The ease of application will depend on how well you set up for your body to intercept the attack before kuzushi is applied, or apply kuzushi with the help of the pressing of the point.

The setups will vary with the individual, but there is the very common kime inspired tenkai kotegaeshi, where kime is applied on the forearm to use a pain balance break before you do the finishing technique.

Another example is using points in our shiai applications is using the thumb of the inner hand to press the point on the base of

the inner elbow while applying ukiotoshi. Very painful, arm would fall nicely in shiai I think (tsuki strike), but of course I could be totally wrong, having only done tanto randori personally. But the tsukuri must still be sound for it to work.

Ok, thats it, no more revealing of my super secret magic techniques that I'm gonna use to kick butt in the Internationals in Leeds. Anyone else who wants to know are gonna have to come on the mat .

Again, apologies for the long post. Hope I answered the question.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 01-10-2003, 12:39 AM   #52
PeterR
 
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Ditto on the UFC Larry but my question was more along the lines of IF you were allowed these sort of strikes - which ones would you consider most useful.

One of the things I noticed during the last All-Kansai tournament were a lot of the shomen-ate techniques were finding the throat. Now considering that you could target the baro-receptors with sho-te would this be viable.

Nariyama-shihan this is a purely theorectical discussion not requiring a demo thank you

Watching the big boys play - when they do pull off the technique the opponent is pretty much gone. I actually don't think there is much advantage to the baro-receptor strike.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-10-2003, 01:13 AM   #53
L. Camejo
 
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Ditto on the UFC Larry but my question was more along the lines of IF you were allowed these sort of strikes - which ones would you consider most useful.

One of the things I noticed during the last All-Kansai tournament were a lot of the shomen-ate techniques were finding the throat. Now considering that you could target the baro-receptors with sho-te would this be viable.
Ahh, now I understand the focus of the question.

I think the way shomenate works if you go for the neck, it may not have any effect on the baroreceptors, as they'd be near your fingertips at this point. May be nice for attacking the thyroid and trachial cartilages though. From what I gather the attack to affect the baroreceptors is a yokomen type strike to the side of the neck, as may be applied while doing a tenkai kotegeshi against a yokomen/shome strike (may work for tsuki too).

I think sometimes in Judo, depending on the angle of the arm and the body as well, a choke like kesa gatame can also attack these receptors. Of course I have never received or administered this particular strike so I cannot vouch for its effectiveness on attacking the receptors in particular (not saying that it may not affect something else just as nicely).

If I were allowed a strike I'd probably go for something like a yokomen to the jaw line, neck or brachial plexus, or a shomen ate type strike to the chin or nose. Theoretically of course.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 01-10-2003, 01:28 AM   #54
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Quote:
Larry Camejo (L. Camejo) wrote:
Theoretically of course.
Of course - thanks.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-10-2003, 01:56 AM   #55
Kevin Wilbanks
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I'm actually surprised that the pressure points are explicitly prohibited by UFC rules. If working these points works as well as advocates claim, this seems foolishly short-sighted on the part of the UFC people. If Dim Mak people started reducing famed NHB fighters to quivering masses with a little tap here and poke there, I would think their ratings would skyrocket. Audiences that never cared about the 'sport' would start watching. I know I would.
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Old 01-10-2003, 07:11 AM   #56
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If I may,

The former owner of the UFC, Art Davies, has said in interviews that the "no pressure point rule" was made because of the belief that there were pressure points that resulted in instant death. At the time the UFC was trying to get sanctioned by state regulatory agencies, so the rule was made (although it was commonly held that the rule was pointless and unenforceable).

Many of the UFC fouls are recent, so martial artists that advocated the effectiveness of pressure points certainly had their opportunity. Heck, they can still use those techniques and claim the result was either accidental or incidental.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 01-10-2003, 09:33 AM   #57
aikidoc
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Kevin-that was a very nice response. Thank you.

I too was skeptical of pressure points (my bs detector was going off) until I personally experienced them. In fact, I went to a seminar and the instructor a 7th dan asked for a skeptic from the attendees. My dojo volunteered me to see if I could be knocked out or "buzzed" (conscious but foggy). The instructor nailed (pretty hard actually) on 3 points the last being my neck. Then he asked me how I felt and observed my eyes were in his opinion a little glazed. Actually, I felt fine it was just the last shot to the side of the neck hurt like hell. It did not work on me. However, my co-dojocho later struck three points with a whole lot less force and even though I tried to act like I was fine and did not feel anything, in reality I felt discoordinated and had a felling of buzzing. I could not focus and my eyes looked like I was stoned for about two hours. That made me give some credence to the potential-especially when I did not have to be hit with tissue destructive force to make it work. Then while teaching a class I had activated two points on an uke and was explaining the suki for atemi when I reached up (ikkyo) and lightly tapped the student on the back of the neck (I mean lightly) and he dropped like a rock. We had to revive him on the mat (katsu). Apparently, quite by accident I had caused a vaso-vagal reflex to be activated. He was fine but it was freaky.

I don't recommend practicing hitting any pressure point very often, hard nor successively and trying knockouts may be irresponsible given the possible health implications. Not all pressure points have to be struck to work. Some are very sensitive to pressure. For example on the inside of the thumb (lung 10) the median nerve can be very sensitive to pressure and helps drop the shoulder and control uke for kotegaeshi and the pin.

I study atemi/kyusho because my belief system about aikido is that it is a martial art. Its history has the use of pressure points and atemi from what I am able to glean from the literature and I find knowledge of this area to be important to my study. I internet interviewed many high ranking instructors over the internet and even had the head of one organization provided input. The striking element was an integral part of early aikido from what I am being told. It appears to have changed after WWII-which is similar to the karate arts-less devastating techniques were taught in response to expanding the art. Additionally, there was apparently some prejudice with showing non Japanese such techniques. Other elements were different instructors were focused on different aspects. Toyoda sensei told me in an interview he never received much instruction in atemi (he trained mostly under Tohei). However, he believed Saotome sensei was very involved in studying that aspect (his words not mine). Tomiki also appeared to have an interest in atemi and was involved in the manuscript for Budo (I believe)and his art does study atemi although I not sure of their definition. Early pictures show O'Sensei delivering strikes in nearly every technique. Many of O'Sensei's students stated they saw lights when he struck or touched them during a technique (which could be a pressure point activation or legend) and others state he was able to pin them with one finger (painfully). Daito-ryu uses pressure points and atemi regularly as part of their curriculum from what I am able to tell so this is likely O'Sensei's source of knowledge. However, I don't think O'Sensei was very involved in formally systematizing anything he did, so it was likely left up to his students to pursue it if they wanted to.

This is an involved topic requiring one to step deeply into aikido's literature and outside of aikido into the realm of ryukyu kempo/kyusho jitsu, anatomy, and acupuncture to pull together the pieces. It is a challenging study for those interested. It becomes more challenging when one realizes the precision and practice necessary to hit the targets at full force. I have seen one "knockout" at full strike force with hitting only arm points. The student had to be revived (katsu)-most likely a vasovagal faint.
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Old 01-23-2003, 07:44 AM   #58
aikidoc
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I was just informed by Black Belt Magazine yesterday that my article on atemi waza and pressure points has been accepted for publication. I don't have a publication date yet. They are reviewing the pictures with the art department-hope I don't have to do them over.
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