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Old 12-17-2002, 03:42 AM   #26
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 646
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violence personified

Quote:
It took a few minute for me to compose myself after reading your post ... it totally left me helpless with laughter, good one.
Damn! My intention was to scare the bejesus out of you — NOT to make you laugh! It seems that I've failed once agian.

Let's see if this works: "Come to Jesus Bruce. Make Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior."

There. Did that work?

Last edited by mike lee : 12-17-2002 at 03:56 AM.
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Old 12-17-2002, 05:33 AM   #27
Brian H
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 102
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Aikido has a lot of merit as a self defense system. The emphasis on moving to a "safe" place, then executing one of the many useful techniques is wonderful.

A skill Aikidoka would likely fair well when confronted by an aggressor of a different tradition. In no small part, because the Aikidoka would likely seek to avoid violence all together, but still resolve the issue at hand.

However, what if there was a confrontation between two Aikidoka? What would happen?

Aikidoka practice is to throw and be thrown without causing or incurring harm.

I think that if the two Aikidoka's judgement were clouded by the passion or the moment, they would just have to work it out when they were to tired to carry on the fight.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
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Old 12-17-2002, 06:02 AM   #28
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 646
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boppers

Quote:
However, what if there was a confrontation between two Aikidoka? What would happen?
I would grab a bokken and beat the fool senseless.
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Old 12-17-2002, 06:10 AM   #29
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 893
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Mike Lee, You are reducing me to tears, now if I can get this stich out of my side from laughing ... You have to train with John Johnson in Baltimore sometime, he has the same kind of banter during practice that leaves the rest of the class in wonderment why I am laughing while I am being thrown or tapping out.

Oh, Well.

Clarity of mind.

You must not be attached to emotions even though you have them, you must not be attached to life even though you cherish life, you must be clear of attachments that would cloud your mind or slow the reflexes of your body as you respond in either word or deed to maintain the non-violent peace of society.

Which means, no matter what kind of weapon, tool of destruction, be it a physical weapon or merely words/deeds, it is the person makes it happen, and the person who next to him/her who let's it happen. The darkness of ones mind determines if they will have the advantage to be victorious or be burdened by that darkness.

The moral dilemma of allowing a violent act to be performed verses having the capability to know how to be violent is but another moot point when practicing aikido. We practice to improve body and mind to attain a clarity to discern from the darkness and the clarity.

Indeed, it never Aikido that is violent, that is just a name for the practice we do. It is a description for movements, techniques, and manner of martial arts ... how could Aikido ever be violent?

So, yes ... Aikido can never be violent, it is the practitioner who makes that choices
Enough with hammers, grenades, and atom bombs mentality of describing these object being violent, as it is the use of them in particular situations that becomes the words/deed that makes up violent.

When inanimate objects become animate, because of robotics and computerized personality traits, or are used, then, of course, violence will ensue.

Put those analogys of inanimate objects to bed, please, please, puhh-lease!

Last edited by Bruce Baker : 12-17-2002 at 06:17 AM.
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Old 12-17-2002, 06:36 AM   #30
one4k4
Location: Connecticut
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 37
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I believe aikido is non-violent as well. I also tend to think that violence is in the eye of the beholder. Similar to love, just the other end of the spectrum. Unless you love violence, but if that's the case we have an entire institute here on the Hospital's campus for you. Padded walls, everything.. But, aikido in general, I think is very non-violent in that the people who practice, practice because they'd like to know how to redirect anger, attacks, and violence without necessarly having to be violent themselves.
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Old 12-17-2002, 06:45 AM   #31
Bryant Pierpont
Dojo: Yoshinkan Hombu Dojo
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 12
Japan
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I'll modify my answer to maybe. The online Webster defines violent as

Main Entry: vi·o·lent

Pronunciation: -l&nt

Function: adjective

Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin violentus; akin to Latin vis strength -- more at VIM

Date: 14th century

1 : marked by extreme force or sudden intense activity <a violent attack>

2 a : notably furious or vehement <a violent denunciation> b : EXTREME, INTENSE <violent pain> <violent colors>

3 : caused by force : not natural <a violent death>

4 a : emotionally agitated to the point of loss of self-control <a mental patient becoming violent> b : prone to commit acts of violence <violent prison inmates>

Sudden intense activity - yes.

The other definition - no.

But isn't everyone really saying the same things...in so many different words?

Bryant Pierpont
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Old 12-17-2002, 07:20 AM   #32
Ta Kung
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 237
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I really hate it when people use quote from dictionarys as answers! I'm not angry with you, Bryant (your case is different). But your post made me start thinking about another messageboard, where people did this ALL the time. It sucked. I've finaly forgotten about it, and now it's back to haunt me again. Arrrghh!

Sorry, just had to get that out of my system.
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Old 12-17-2002, 08:40 AM   #33
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
Location: London
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 899
United Kingdom
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I fail to believe we could ever get good ol Joe public to believe any martial art is non-violent, no matter how many dictionaries we use.

I admit it, I voted yes! Mainly because although the intentions in aikido may be intrinsically non-violent, although I've met many practitioners I'm not sure qualify, I'm not convinced the execution normally is (nikkyo anyone).

I do find it interesting that the most vociferous arguments are by the "its not violent" group (with the notable exception of the ever dependable Mr Lee).
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Old 12-17-2002, 08:56 AM   #34
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 646
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word of the day

vociferous

SYLLABICATION: vo·cif·er·ous

PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: v-sfr-s     KEY

ADJECTIVE: Making, given to, or marked by noisy and vehement outcry.

OTHER FORMS: vo·cifer·ous·ly —ADVERB

vo·cifer·ous·ness —NOUN

SYNONYMS: vociferous, blatant, boisterous, strident, clamorous These adjectives mean conspicuously and usually offensively loud. Vociferous suggests a noisy outcry, as of vehement protest: vociferous complaints. Blatant connotes coarse or vulgar noisiness: "Up rose a blatant Radical" (Walter Bagehot). Boisterous implies unrestrained noise, tumult, and often rowdiness: boisterous youths. Strident stresses offensive harshness, shrillness, or discordance: a legislator with a strident voice. Something clamorous is both vociferous and sustained: a clamorous uproar.



Sorry Patrik — I just couldn't resist. (I must be a very bad man.) But I learned a new word today!

Last edited by mike lee : 12-17-2002 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 12-17-2002, 01:43 PM   #35
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Francisco CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 510
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WHO YOU CALLIN VOCIFEROUS???!?!?!

Well I guess it's been discussed to death. time for a new poll.
Anyway my last thoughts:

I've always thought of the sudden intesnse activity as coming from uke's attack, with aikido being the part where that activity calms down to peacefullness (nage first rises to the intensity of the attack but promotes peace by remaining calm). And yes I realize sometimes nage must initiate but that does not contradict the above at all.

Also it was the weirdest thing in concept, but thanks to Patrick Cassidy sensei I now have seen The Non-violent Nikkyo. Really cool stuff. I am convinced that no matter how violent some people are, aikido itself remains non-violent.

Well thanks for reading and thanks for writing, this has been one interesting poll.
--JW
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Old 12-17-2002, 05:57 PM   #36
sanosuke
Dojo: Seigi Dojo
Location: Jakarta
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 247
Indonesia
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Quote:
its not the product, its the end user
agreee, being a flexible martial art aikido is depending on the practitioner in applying the art. although two people comes from a same art the outcome can be different.

In my personal opinion aikido is not bound by 'violent' or 'soft' alone. Aikido gives its practitioner more option to deal with his/her attackers compared to other martial arts. depending on situation and mood, a soft aikidoka can turn violent on certain situations and vice versa. Besides, what does 'violent' mean here? Is it the Steven Seagal style aikido, or when a person attacks you you just avoid and let him bang himself to a wall?, both of them can be considered violent, I think....
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Old 12-17-2002, 08:31 PM   #37
Alfonso
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 346
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I like to think Aikido allows an expression for violence that can be safely handled through nonviolence. As Uke the feeling I try for is violence in the attack, an emotional discharge (pheromones even?) which Nage can ride safely down.

To me Aikido transforms society because it tames the killers, not because it makes killers out of the tame. It tames them by allowing an constructive expression of violence.

Alfonso Adriasola
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