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Old 12-12-2002, 08:11 PM   #1
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
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Martial side to Aikido?

Many threads have touched upon the practical practice of Aikido which seems to reach to touchy feely on one end of the scale to learn to kill the offender on the other end of the scale.

Somewhere inbetween is the Martial applications, and why can't Aikido class touch upon some of the basics that should be learned from Karate, or other fighting arts?

Really ... how come there isn't more basics that touch upon the basics of stances, hand forms for strikes or punches, and the different movements for legs in arms found in my old friend, Kempo Karate?

Or is the separateness of learning these things the prerequisite to martial arts and we don't need all those confusing things in Aikido? The eastern thought of attending different schools to learn different disciplines applys itself to this question?

I don't know.

All those confusing things make Aikido a lot clearer ... at least I think it does, don't you?

Last edited by Bruce Baker : 12-12-2002 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 12-12-2002, 10:04 PM   #2
Kat.C
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Bruce there are plenty of systems in place that combine these things why try to mash it all in to aikido? If you want karate take karate, if you want aikido take aikido, if you want both, do both separately or train with someone who combines them. There are I am sure aikido dojo that do focus on these things, we've practised proper karate punches in ours. Really though if this concerns you and you feel your aikido training is lacking, wouldn't you be better served asking this question of your sensei?

Kat

I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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Old 12-13-2002, 12:31 AM   #3
Nathan Pereira
Dojo: Joseikan Jui Jitsu/MMA/Aikido Rickmansworth, Herts
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Quote:
Really ... how come there isn't more basics that touch upon the basics of stances, hand forms for strikes or punches


Ummm...well you may not have and many others in Aikido may not have but Aikido is very diverse in its practice. I know that in all the aikido I have done [Yoshinkan] we have drilled in all of these areas on a regular basis in great detail.I suspect many others from all styles have too. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean its not there.


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Old 12-13-2002, 08:54 AM   #4
MattRice
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part of it may be in the tradition of Aikido instruction. If I remeber correctly, O'sensei wanted students who were already adept at another art. Perhaps he expected folks to know this stuff already (striking, stances etc) and that attitude has been passed down. Just a thought. The Sensei's at our dojo continually admonish that for Aikido to be a martial art, it has to have things in it like:decisive foot work, strong stances, good striking etc. I find that learning some of that stuff falls to my responsibility. Further, NOTICING that I need to learn it is often harder for me to grasp.
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Old 12-13-2002, 05:25 PM   #5
Bruce Baker
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Yes, Matt that is precisely my point, there is too much " I think I know" and people do not really go out to learn before Aikido.

Those that do, empty their cup to the point that they are not applying what they are supposed to have learned in other arts because the aikido teacher does not integrate training into aikido class.

Another thing, please do not toute that in yoshinkan, or in what ever organization you belong to you do this or that ... what you are doing is but the smallest fraction of what you should have brought with you to learn aikido, not the other way around.

I have had enough spirited arguements with people who have had two or three months with some other martial arts or no martial arts training at all to last a lifetime, and I tell you ... what we are doing in aikido today is the difference between mimicing, and actually understanding the how the magician does his trick with science, manipulation, and a little showmanship.

Yeah, we have the practice of aikido and there are many fine points to aikido, but why practice aikido if there is no threat from anyone, and if they are techniques of a bygone era of knives and swords?

Surely the modern world of weapons and laws overrides any threat of physical violence? Or does it?

I am saying that the best student, and practitioner is one who can not only practice aikido, but one who can understand the invaluable lessons of fighting arts that aikido can protect you from should you need it.

Of course, learning proper uses of other techniques performed with hands, feet, and other parts of the body gives you fair warning of what to expect if your aikido does not work as well as you think it should within a given conflict. It wouldn't hurt to be versed in the basics of using your hand and feet as weapons, even if you never use them.

At least you have a knowledge of what to expect from opponents, and that knowledge will enlighten you to more secrets in aikido than you could ever have found without this basic knowledge.

Of course, each of us has our own sandbox to play in, our fish pond to live in, and you can continue to delude yourself that the narrow training of aikido is absolutely enough, but I know of at least one kind hearted aikido guy who was injured for life because he didn't have this exposure, and now he refuses to train in any art because of his injurys, and fear.

I hope this never happens to you.
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Old 12-13-2002, 09:20 PM   #6
L. Camejo
 
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Quote:
Bruce Baker wrote:
Another thing, please do not toute that in yoshinkan, or in what ever organization you belong to you do this or that ... what you are doing is but the smallest fraction of what you should have brought with you to learn aikido, not the other way around.
Trying to understand here... Does this mean that if one's first martial art is Aikido and they don't learn striking elsewhere or train in any other MA that they will be useless or less effective in a martial sense?

From my experience a major determining factor for the martial effectiveness of any dojo (irrelevant of MA style) are the specific training methods employed, not the techniques taught.

Whether it be punching, kicking, ppfighting, grappling or whatever, the training method is what determines development of reflexes, timing, maai, tactics etc., which relate to martial effectiveness.

Learning to strike well does not necessarily mean that your martial effectiveness will increase. Check out a modern Wushu training session if you have any questions. Lots of precise, flowery strikes and other movements, but like much of Aikido, it's all prearranged.

Interesting how MA styles that employ sparring or practice with a partner who has free will to change attacks and tactics tend not to entertain the "martial effectiveness" question much.

L.C.

Last edited by L. Camejo : 12-13-2002 at 09:24 PM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 12-14-2002, 07:45 AM   #7
MattRice
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Quote:
Larry Camejo (L. Camejo) wrote:
From my experience a major determining factor for the martial effectiveness of any dojo (irrelevant of MA style) are the specific training methods employed, not the techniques taught.

Whether it be punching, kicking, ppfighting, grappling or whatever, the training method is what determines development of reflexes, timing, maai, tactics etc., which relate to martial effectiveness.
Agreed. It's not what you do but how you do it.
Quote:
Learning to strike well does not necessarily mean that your martial effectiveness will increase. Check out a modern Wushu training session if you have any questions. Lots of precise, flowery strikes and other movements, but like much of Aikido, it's all prearranged.
True, but it sure doesn't hurt to know how to generate power from a strike when you don't have room to wind up, cock, etc... and I've been hit by Wushu practitioners with strikes that were, um...more than flowery...
Quote:
Interesting how MA styles that employ sparring or practice with a partner who has free will to change attacks and tactics tend not to entertain the "martial effectiveness" question much.
Not sure about this. Maybe "martial effectiveness" is not talked about the way Aikidoka do here, but it is a concern. Again this goes back to your first statement in this post, it's how you train. In our dojo there isn't a whole bunch of debate over effectiveness. It's not needed, all you have to do is try to knock Sensei's head off when you're uke. Effectiveness is made glaringly obvious as I shake the stars out of my head!
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Old 12-14-2002, 08:14 AM   #8
Nathan Pereira
Dojo: Joseikan Jui Jitsu/MMA/Aikido Rickmansworth, Herts
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I simply quoted that my "main" experience with "Aikido" is through this particular school. I freely acknowledge that this is probably irrelevant as it is purely down to the teacher as to what you learn sytle is nothing.

I do not really wish to go into a"I've done this and I've done that". I am simply stating that all the things you mention in this post and many others [pressure points] you may feel is lacking in "YOUR" aikido training but please do not assume that it is lacking in eveyone elses. I have done other fighting styles but found that the aikido that i had available encompassed a more complete package.

A little tip is to be less condesending and preachy in your posts and you wouldn't be on so many peoples ignore list and I people might start listening more to what you have to say as amongst all the sermons of how we are all deluded and doing it wrong I find my self agreeing with you a lot its just your delivery.

For me 90% of the Aikidoka I have seen couldn't defend themselves out of a wet paper bag because as you correctly suggest they have no understanding of the things you mentioned. So i guess I agree with you but just don't assume we all practice the same way even within the same school/style.

Peace.

N


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Old 12-14-2002, 09:15 AM   #9
SeiserL
 
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I would agree with the observation that we possibly under train in the attacks. If I remember right, most original students of O'Sensei's came from other styles and already had a martial background. I agree we tend to neglect it. I agree too, that it may be more our resposnibilities to fill out our needs than to expect Aikido to be everything to everybody.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 12-14-2002, 09:48 AM   #10
mike lee
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WHAT'S `EFFECTIVE'?

It never ceases to amaze me how regularly such threads pop up. And then the same discussions just simply repeat over and over again.

If you don't believe that what you are doing is effective, then I really have to wonder WHY IN THE WORLD ARE YOU DOING IT?

Is it because you think it's fashoinable or cool?

If you want to learn to be a tough guy, go learn from a tough guy. Become a professional kick-boxer, lose some teeth, break some ribs, damage the cartilage in your knees, break your arm and dislocate your shoulder a few times.

When you've had enough of being a tough guy, and provided you can still sit on your knees and have at least some cognitive functions left over, then you still might be able to undertake some aikido training.

But the truth of the matter is that most people don't REALLY want to be tough guys. They just want to imagine that they COULD BE. They're looking for some magic martial art that will suddenly enable them to BEAT ANYONE! But they don't want to work hard they don't want to sweat, and they don't want to bleed. They just want IT handed to them on a silver platter. As if we could hand out the Holy Grail of martial arts skills to them.

The very idea of easily learning a special skill that allows you to beat anyone is an incredible dillusion in and of itself. What if a lot of people easily learned such a thing and then they fought each other. Who would win?

It's almost always these same people that are looking for something "effective," that are equally unwilling to seriously commit themselves to diligent training in anything. They're what the Chinese call "dead dreamers."

Last edited by mike lee : 12-14-2002 at 09:51 AM.
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Old 12-14-2002, 10:10 AM   #11
L. Camejo
 
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Quote:
Matt Rice (MattRice) wrote:
True, but it sure doesn't hurt to know how to generate power from a strike when you don't have room to wind up, cock, etc... and I've been hit by Wushu practitioners with strikes that were, um...more than flowery...
I guess its all a matter of digging deep enough I guess.

I agree with you on both counts, just used the Wushu training methodolgy as an example. I know how powerful Wushu can be if one pursues that area of the training, experienced it from one of the Chinese national team coaches . But the same principle applies to Aikido, it's there, we just have to see it (and I guess practice it outside of class sometimes).

But then again I've learnt to generate striking power when there is no room to wind up from Aikido training alone. A problem I had with a recent Chin na/Kung fu workshop I went to was the lack of foot movement in some techniques (not saying that these arts lack foot movement mind you, merely my shortcoming). But I found myself generating much more power by doing the same strikes and movements, but augmented by unified body tsugi ashi irimi movement, which is Aikido.
Quote:
Maybe "martial effectiveness" is not talked about the way Aikidoka do here, but it is a concern.
Again, I agree. Semantics really. I guess I'm tired of people raising issues on Aikido's martial effectiveness or lack of some element, when they may not have really searched for it thoroughly enough.

Effectiveness is a concern elsewhere, but as you rightly say, maybe not talked about in the same way we do in Aikido sometimes.

Arigato Gozaimashita

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 12-14-2002, 02:39 PM   #12
Bruce Baker
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I hate to keep going on in this vein of pleading with you all, but really, wake up!

It is not going to lesson your knowledge of how and why aikido works but enhance it.

I most cases it will stop a variety of these petty questions that start to wander in the direction of any one martial art being better than another.

Would you wear artic clotheing in the tropics?

Would you wear your grubby weekend clothes to a wedding?

Would you watch looney toons to use cartoon foo to protect yourself over Three Stooges antics?

Really though ... my experience of meeting one of the very promising practitioners of Aikido whose recieved a simple side kick that damaged his liver, broke his spleen because he was not aware of the seriousness of how feet or hands could be used as weapons is the most telling lesson of all. Better to be prepared than to rely totally upon your Aikido that is learned in ignorance of other fighting arts.

Awareness does nothing more than make you appreciate your Aikido all the more.

The fact that you understand the way the hands and feet can be applied increase you knowledge and understanding of Aikido to the point that you will see the connection between all martial arts, and the synthesis of how Aikido excells to keep you both aware, and at a high level of training in its practice.

Some of you will say,"I already know that." Well, if you do, stop whining how good Aikido is and do what all the old timers do ... go out and get some knowledge. Somewhere along the way, you will find that in broadening your martial arts education it is on the same terms as educating yourself in anything you do in life.

Don't mind me, my feet are cold, and it is dark/ rainy day. I just chased the Mormons away from my door while the dog went berserk.

I think the dog had it right.
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Old 12-14-2002, 11:14 PM   #13
Jimro
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Aikido works.

Whether or not Aikidoka are competent to defend themselves is what you are really asking. And from your previous post you seem to think that most of us can't.

Read "In Search of the Warrior Spirit" By Richard Heckler. If Aikido is good enough for the Green Beret's, it's good enough for me.

I recently attended a JiuJitsu conference where a visiting Kempo Karate instructor said, "If you're not crosstraining you're stupid." (I paraphrased that).

In my humble opinion Aikido is the best 'base' martial art to have. Aikido emphasizes proper balance, body movement, distance, and timing. I know that other martial arts have many things to offer, Kempo practicioners are famous for their outrageous hand speed.

But not everyone enters the dojo looking to become a killing machine. Some people just go to get their workout in. And that is just fine with me, because whether or not they can defend themselves ninety miles away visiting aunt Rose is NOT MY CONCERN. I know what I know.

Aikido instructors are not setting their students up to fail. If someone feels that they are not prepared to defend themselves, then it is THEIR responsibility to LEARN HOW!

There are many martial skills that NO art teaches, such as how to deal with excessive amounts of pain. Sometimes things have to be learned on the job.

I feel you are studying Aikido now to complement your Kempo skills, and I'm sure that you are noticing an improvement in your fighting ability. But I state again that not every Aikidoka is looking to become Steven Seagall in "Under Siege".

If you are like me and see some Aikido techniques that are just begging for a quick nerve strike or bone break, then I suggest you do like I do, clear your head, and concentrate on the instructor. It is EASY TO HURT, MAIM, AND KILL, it is much harder to keep both yourself and the attacker healthy.

We have a saying in the Army. "Two Million dollars of training, and ANY redneck with a shotgun can kill you."

I state again, Aikido works.
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Old 12-15-2002, 04:00 PM   #14
DaveO
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We're lucky in our Dojo, we rent the space from Club Olympia here; in the club, we have an Aikido dojo (us), a Judo dojo, a Karate school, BJJ classes and a boxing club that just opened. My current project is to bring instructors from the other disciplines into the class occasionally to examine Aikido's applications against striking and ground-fighting experts.

For my own training on my own time, I study the conflict resolution aspect of Aikido, from the initial attack to the resolution. I'm slowly adapting it for my own use; i.e. an easy-to-teach self-defence system based on Aikido for use by soldiers in the field - so far, it's working very well. As stated by others, Aikido works very well; although I am cross-trained, I do not believe that cross-training or altering the discipline is essential to learning it - the important thing is that one is prepared - and willing - to defend himself to maximum effect when the need arises.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 12-16-2002, 04:24 PM   #15
Jimro
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Quote:
Dave Organ (DaveO) wrote:
For my own training on my own time, I study the conflict resolution aspect of Aikido, from the initial attack to the resolution. I'm slowly adapting it for my own use; i.e. an easy-to-teach self-defence system based on Aikido for use by soldiers in the field - so far, it's working very well. As stated by others, Aikido works very well; although I am cross-trained, I do not believe that cross-training or altering the discipline is essential to learning it - the important thing is that one is prepared - and willing - to defend himself to maximum effect when the need arises.
The US Army based hand to hand combatives mostly on JiuJitsu techniques. FM 75-150 is the field manual for teaching hand to hand combatives. Since the change to Gracie style jiujitsu I don't know if the manual has been updated. I don't agree with the change, but the Army was looking for a martial art that is easy to teach that would instill a 'warrior mentality' into soldiers. Thank goodness crusty old sergeants still pass on their knowlege to anyone who asks.

Question for Dave, have you served in a military force?
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