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Old 05-01-2021, 02:35 AM   #1
ja1to1
Join Date: Apr 2021
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Aikido need not prove itself

Hi Guys, I made this video in response to another video regarding Aikidoka proving that Aikido works against a resisting partner. My view is that Aikido doesn't have to prove anything because the founder did not develop it for that. Being able to use a technique from Aikido on a resisting opponent is not Aikido but actually proving that a Daito-Ryu Jiu-Jitsu technique works. Let me know what you think and thanks in advance:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mLfERr1y12s
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Old 05-02-2021, 08:41 PM   #2
Eric Jones
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Re: Aikido need not prove itself

Say that to Tomiki guys.
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Old 05-03-2021, 05:09 AM   #3
Alex Megann
Dojo: Southampton Aikikai
Location: Southampton
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Re: Aikido need not prove itself

Jasen,

There is nothing in your profile, so I don't know what your background is in aikido. I disagree strongly that aikido doesn't prepare you for a "strongly resisting opponent" - it's just that much of modern aikido has lost these training methods and tools. My teacher (a student of Gozo Shioda) loved strong grips, and the more people gripping the better. He was famously near-impossible to immobilise, and this was certainly not physical strength, particularly when he was in his seventies.

In my opinion this is part of a high-level Aiki skillset, and doesn't come from simply practising standard aikido technique.

Alex
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Old 05-03-2021, 04:12 PM   #4
ja1to1
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Re: Aikido need not prove itself

That's a good point. Shodokan was the style of Aikido that I practiced. However, although it's great, in the sense that it allows sparring and competition, it's very different to Aikikai. I actually saw Shodokan as very close to being more like Jiu-Jitsu than Aikido. In addition, I also felt that it was still not realistic enough for self-defence, in the same way that BJJ, Judo, Wrestling MMA etc are. The attacker in Shodokan has to follow specific rules in regards to how they strike. It's good, don't get me wrong, and I loved training in it. I'll probably go back to it when I feel that I can't do BJJ and MMA anymore. Not for combat training, though. I think my time training and competing would have earned me a break by then. Still, it's a good point.
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Old 05-03-2021, 04:20 PM   #5
ja1to1
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Re: Aikido need not prove itself

Hi Alex, I don't practice Aikido anymore. However, I did Shodokan (Tomiki) Aikido for 3 years. I really wanted to learn Aikikai style and went to a few sessions. I'll be honest, I didn't ever believe that Aikido was effective for actual self-defence. However, after I read more about it and Morihei Ueshiba, I understood that this wasn't what Aikido is for. I completely understand that you've seen Yoshinkan practitioners do things like show that they are immovable etc. However, these things only work either against students or if people are told to push in a certain way. In a freestyle round of randori, they would never be able to get this to work. It's still amazing and I respect that this takes time to be able to do. However, it's not effective in combat...but, that's not the point of Aikido. I could be wrong on this. So, I'm open to anything you have to share. I'd love to hear as I do like Aikido and I think Aikido practitioners are amazing martial artists.
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Old 05-04-2021, 10:19 AM   #6
Eric Jones
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Re: Aikido need not prove itself

Hi Jasen, I think Tomiki can be used for self defense. The problem I think is the focus on tanto randori instead of hand to hand randori. You have to remember that Kenji Tomiki created the self defense techniques for Judo based mainly on Aikido techniques.
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Old 05-04-2021, 12:43 PM   #7
ja1to1
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Re: Aikido need not prove itself

Quote:
Eric Jones wrote: View Post
Hi Jasen, I think Tomiki can be used for self defense. The problem I think is the focus on tanto randori instead of hand to hand randori. You have to remember that Kenji Tomiki created the self defense techniques for Judo based mainly on Aikido techniques.
That's a good point. Most clubs purely focus on tanto randori. However, the club that I trained at did get us doing toshu randori as well. Don't get me wrong, it's nowhere near useless and it does give you the chance to attempt Aikido against a resisting opponent. However, the rules are set to maintain the correct distancing through the round. You're not allowed to revert to judo style tactics like grabbing the gi, back of the neck etc. Unfortunately, these tactics are very natural, as the distance is lost really quickly in randori. So, Shodokan/Tomiki style randori is purely to allow the Aikidoka to try Aikido techniques against a resisting opponent. There's not many techniques, so it is limited to just pure Shodokan Aikido techniques. It's not an actual combat situation. Judo, BJJ and Wrestling (Freestyle, Greco-Roman, Catch) deal with what usually, or is more likely to happen when two people grapple. Aikido, including Tomiki's style, is not dealing with grappling - it's only dealing with Aikido.

In regards to the self-defence techniques, that's true, you're correct. Kenji Tomiki did add the self-defence Kata for Judo. I find this more of a historical study than anything else. Saying that, these techniques can and probably have worked. So, I agree with you on that.
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Old 05-04-2021, 03:27 PM   #8
Eric Jones
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Re: Aikido need not prove itself

In my first Aikido tournament I got penalized for grabbing the gi. I don't know why I did that even though I never I never do it in class. Even though tournaments may not allow striking and grappling that other martial arts employ I still think it's a good training tool. I don't have experience with BJJ and western wrestling but I've used Tomiki against people in my Judo class for shits and giggles. Even against Olympian Judoka. I don't think I could have done any of that if I studied regular Aikido. So I think the Tomiki methodology is better in that regard. Also tanto randori was invented because people were using Judo instead of Aikido at tournaments. So you're right that Aikido tournaments go against our natural instincts for fighting.
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Old 05-05-2021, 01:49 AM   #9
Alex Megann
Dojo: Southampton Aikikai
Location: Southampton
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Re: Aikido need not prove itself

Quote:
Jasen Vassoodaven wrote: View Post
(snip) I completely understand that you've seen Yoshinkan practitioners do things like show that they are immovable etc. However, these things only work either against students or if people are told to push in a certain way. In a freestyle round of randori, they would never be able to get this to work. It's still amazing and I respect that this takes time to be able to do. However, it's not effective in combat...but, that's not the point of Aikido. I could be wrong on this. So, I'm open to anything you have to share. I'd love to hear as I do like Aikido and I think Aikido practitioners are amazing martial artists.
Hi Jasen,

I think you might be revealing a lack of experience in the wider aikido world. You should be careful when you say "these things only work either against students or if people are told to push in a certain way". Have you ever tried to immobilise a really experienced practitioner? This kind of practice, as I said in my earlier post, had a central part in Ueshiba Sensei's Budo, but is rarely taught these days. I should add that Dan Harden re-discovered these skills he learned from his Daito Ryu teacher in his early days when he found that they really did work in competition.

Alex
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Old 05-05-2021, 10:04 AM   #10
Eric Jones
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Re: Aikido need not prove itself

Alex he's talking about actually fighting someone. He doesn't mean holding an Aikido's guy wrist really hard.
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Old 05-05-2021, 10:25 AM   #11
Alex Megann
Dojo: Southampton Aikikai
Location: Southampton
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United Kingdom
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Re: Aikido need not prove itself

Quote:
Eric Jones wrote: View Post
Alex he's talking about actually fighting someone. He doesn't mean holding an Aikido's guy wrist really hard.
Jasen's original post included this: "Being able to use a technique from Aikido on a resisting opponent is not Aikido" - that's the only thing I am debating here. And I think you may have speed-read the last sentence of my last post.

Anyway, what do you mean by "actually fighting someone"? Are you thinking of Tomiki shiai? UFC? Someone who pulls a knife on you in a back street?

Alex

Last edited by Alex Megann : 05-05-2021 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 05-05-2021, 05:21 PM   #12
ja1to1
Join Date: Apr 2021
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England
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Re: Aikido need not prove itself

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote: View Post
Hi Jasen,

I think you might be revealing a lack of experience in the wider aikido world. You should be careful when you say "these things only work either against students or if people are told to push in a certain way". Have you ever tried to immobilise a really experienced practitioner? This kind of practice, as I said in my earlier post, had a central part in Ueshiba Sensei's Budo, but is rarely taught these days. I should add that Dan Harden re-discovered these skills he learned from his Daito Ryu teacher in his early days when he found that they really did work in competition.

Alex
Before I started BJJ, I trained in Judo under Winston Gordon, for 3 years. Some of the guys from the Tomiki Aikido club started coming to Judo. One of they was a 3rd Degree Black belt. He was really good at keeping his balance but I was able to immobilize him. However, this was in ground work, where I would use udé garami, udé gatame, waki gatame and juji gatame. I never applied any standing armlocks, because I was always looking to throw. The judo experience made it easier for me to throw him, than vice versa. Saying that, I could definitely feel the benefit that these guys got from training in Tomiki Aikido. It was only that they found it very difficult to do anything when in at suck close range with judo grips. I've been doing BJJ for 8 years now and have met many people from various Aikido backgrounds coming in to try BJJ. I have to say that they feel like regular new comers, even the Tomiki guys. But....I do rate Tomiki's style of Aikido. It's like a middle ground for being less strenuous than judo etc, but a lot more realistic than Aikikai.
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Old 05-05-2021, 09:05 PM   #13
Eric Jones
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Re: Aikido need not prove itself

Quote:
Jasen Vassoodaven wrote: View Post
Before I started BJJ, I trained in Judo under Winston Gordon, for 3 years. Some of the guys from the Tomiki Aikido club started coming to Judo. One of they was a 3rd Degree Black belt. He was really good at keeping his balance but I was able to immobilize him. However, this was in ground work, where I would use udé garami, udé gatame, waki gatame and juji gatame. I never applied any standing armlocks, because I was always looking to throw. The judo experience made it easier for me to throw him, than vice versa. Saying that, I could definitely feel the benefit that these guys got from training in Tomiki Aikido. It was only that they found it very difficult to do anything when in at suck close range with judo grips. I've been doing BJJ for 8 years now and have met many people from various Aikido backgrounds coming in to try BJJ. I have to say that they feel like regular new comers, even the Tomiki guys. But....I do rate Tomiki's style of Aikido. It's like a middle ground for being less strenuous than judo etc, but a lot more realistic than Aikikai.
When I just started Tomiki AIkido my instructor encouraged me to learn Judo as well. So after years of doing both Judo and Aikido I learned to use Aikido techniques against the judoka. Very simple stuff. If they have a good grip on my lapel I'll attack it and do wakigatame. If they try to do seonage on me I would use usiro-ate. Anyway of course they wouldn't do well in a judo setting because they've never done judo. They're not there to use Aikido techniques they're there to learn Judo techniuqs. And of course anyone coming into BJJ without knowing any type of grappling on the ground is going to roll like a beginner because they are a beginner. I tried a BJJ class once and I couldn't do anything the instructor was teaching the class. When it can time to rolling a guy told me what it was going to feel like to roll and don't beat myself up if I didn't do well. I said okay. I held my own rolling and he asked if I've done this before. I said I've done a little bit of Judo.
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Old Yesterday, 09:46 AM   #14
ja1to1
Join Date: Apr 2021
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England
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Re: Aikido need not prove itself

Quote:
Eric Jones wrote: View Post
When I just started Tomiki AIkido my instructor encouraged me to learn Judo as well. So after years of doing both Judo and Aikido I learned to use Aikido techniques against the judoka. Very simple stuff. If they have a good grip on my lapel I'll attack it and do wakigatame. If they try to do seonage on me I would use usiro-ate. Anyway of course they wouldn't do well in a judo setting because they've never done judo. They're not there to use Aikido techniques they're there to learn Judo techniuqs. And of course anyone coming into BJJ without knowing any type of grappling on the ground is going to roll like a beginner because they are a beginner. I tried a BJJ class once and I couldn't do anything the instructor was teaching the class. When it can time to rolling a guy told me what it was going to feel like to roll and don't beat myself up if I didn't do well. I said okay. I held my own rolling and he asked if I've done this before. I said I've done a little bit of Judo.
I get what you mean. The Aikido guys joined the Judo club because they wanted to prepare for an Aikido comp. However, they were still there to learn Judo, not apply Aikido against Judo. Obviously, the skills that they gained from Aikido have them a base of balance that was better than a beginner. Same goes for BJJ. Yeah, you're not going to be amazing at BJJ if all you've done before that is Aikido. However, you would have developed some skills that from Aikido that can transfer into BJJ - again, like balance. I completely agree with you.
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