Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-05-2018, 06:42 AM   #1
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 333
Serbia
Offline
AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Some interesting view points on the way various Aikido techniques are used that might not have a credible martial effectiveness:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSokOfplxA8 - Yokomenuchi Shihonage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvdGmZy1IGc - Katatori Ikkyo
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2018, 01:39 PM   #2
dps
 
dps's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,353
Offline
Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

I watched both videos.
The number one reason a technique does not work is because the opponent is not unbalanced before the technique is applied. If your opponent is unbalanced and you are balanced you are then in control of the opponent and can apply any technique you want, Aikido or otherwise.

dps
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2018, 03:08 AM   #3
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,435
Offline
Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

self serving

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2018, 12:43 PM   #4
ninjedi
 
ninjedi's Avatar
Location: mpls, mn
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 42
United_States
Offline
Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

I would tend to agree, the reason the techniques in these videos are not working is because he is not doing them correctly. Uke is standing upright with both feet firmly planted in almost every demo.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2018, 04:19 AM   #5
shizentai
Location: CA
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 16
United_States
Offline
Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Yeah, yeah, it's true that many techniques will work once the opponent is unbalanced. Yet some techniques have far worse chance of unbalancing said opponent than others. It is a delusional yet typical Aikido viewpoint that all techniques have the same chance of successful execution.

In fact, the only parts of traditional Aikido that actually work in reality, are the beginnings of techniques, not the techniques themselves. Deflections, redirects, defensive footwork and positioning with counter strikes and closing of openings.

Chances of you doing shiho nage to a haymaker or ikkyo to a collar grab in real life are extremely low. Extremely.

This is probably why Tenshin Aikido makes a big deal out of drilling deflections. They do work. They're the cornerstone of Aikido's effectiveness as a defensive system. From them it may be possible to transition to some techniques, SOMETIMES, and not at all in the manner that traditional Aikidoists are accustomed to.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2018, 10:35 AM   #6
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,192
United_States
Offline
Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
It is a delusional yet typical Aikido viewpoint
Oh boy.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2018, 01:47 PM   #7
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,248
Spain
Offline
Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
I watched both videos.
Guy talks too much.

Does he at any moment performs the techniques in a functional, alive way?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2018, 01:38 AM   #8
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: New Zealand
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 995
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

The techniques of Aikido are there to develop aiki. They are not really techniques of self-defence. But if you have a measure of some aiki, and put it into say, Jujutsu, then you will have something. Otherwise, even Jujutsu is just 'crunch uke with levered force'.

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2018, 05:20 AM   #9
dps
 
dps's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,353
Offline
Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
The techniques of Aikido are there to develop aiki. They are not really techniques of self-defence. But if you have a measure of some aiki, and put it into say, Jujutsu, then you will have something. Otherwise, even Jujutsu is just 'crunch uke with levered force'.
The techniques of aikido are used to develope aiki but are not for self defense. Therefore aiki is not for self defense? If aiki is for self defense then why can't you put aiki into the Aikido techniques and have something?

dps
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2018, 05:26 AM   #10
dps
 
dps's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,353
Offline
Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Guy talks too much.

Does he at any moment performs the techniques in a functional, alive way?
No.

dps
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2018, 09:35 AM   #11
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 333
Serbia
Offline
Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
The techniques of Aikido are there to develop aiki. They are not really techniques of self-defence. But if you have a measure of some aiki, and put it into say, Jujutsu, then you will have something. Otherwise, even Jujutsu is just 'crunch uke with levered force'.
What are we going to do about the statement of Yukiyoshi Sagawa who said that only amateurs think they can achieve Aiki through techniques?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2018, 11:34 AM   #12
dps
 
dps's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,353
Offline
Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
What are we going to do about the statement of Yukiyoshi Sagawa who said that only amateurs think they can achieve Aiki through techniques?
Ignore it.

dps
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2018, 11:54 AM   #13
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: New Zealand
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 995
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
What are we going to do about the statement of Yukiyoshi Sagawa who said that only amateurs think they can achieve Aiki through techniques?
It is absolutely correct. The Aikido 'techniques' are not the techniques he was talking about. He was talking about Jujutsu techniques.

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2018, 11:57 AM   #14
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: New Zealand
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 995
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
The techniques of aikido are used to develope aiki but are not for self defense. Therefore aiki is not for self defense? If aiki is for self defense then why can't you put aiki into the Aikido techniques and have something?

dps
Well, you could - that is what some people try to do. But the Aikido techniques themselves are insufficient for self-defence. If I were young again I would spend my life first targeting aiki and then trying to put it into Judo/Jujutsu etc. I did try ... but it took me too long to figure it all out. Too old now. I was led down the wrong paths until I eventually broke free for myself.

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2018, 04:53 PM   #15
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 333
Serbia
Offline
Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Well, you could - that is what some people try to do. But the Aikido techniques themselves are insufficient for self-defence.
Hm, somebody should have told that to several of the people I know who had to use them one way or another.

Quote:
If I were young again I would spend my life first targeting aiki and then trying to put it into Judo/Jujutsu etc. I did try ... but it took me too long to figure it all out. Too old now. I was led down the wrong paths until I eventually broke free for myself.
le I know who had to use them in the

First, Jujutsu as in JJJ or BJJ?

Second, why would you want to put something as complicated as aiki into something that already works on the good old basic physics of leverage and gravity?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2018, 04:56 PM   #16
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 333
Serbia
Offline
Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
It is absolutely correct. The Aikido 'techniques' are not the techniques he was talking about. He was talking about Jujutsu techniques.
And the techniques in Aikido are in fact jujutsu techniques of Daito ryu, it's been said by multiple people that the techniques themselves aren't enough to gain an aiki body.

Essentially someone should try first for a couple of years to concentrate only on gaining aiki then on implementing it in techniques.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2018, 05:11 PM   #17
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 333
Serbia
Offline
Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Ignore it.

dps
Why?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2018, 10:51 AM   #18
Jeremy Hulley
Dojo: Seattle School of Aikido Shinto Ryu/Seattle Icho Ryu
Location: Seattle
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 148
Offline
Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

For reference Bernie Lau who was a Seattle police officer for years certainly made shihonage and ikkyo work against resisting opponents.

Jeremy Hulley
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2018, 11:25 AM   #19
ninjedi
 
ninjedi's Avatar
Location: mpls, mn
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 42
United_States
Offline
Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Essentially someone should try first for a couple of years to concentrate only on gaining aiki then on implementing it in techniques.
Isn't that akin to putting the cart before the horse?

Do we not gain aiki by training, learning techniques?

If you want to race in the Daytona 500, you first have to learn how to drive.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2018, 03:33 PM   #20
RonRagusa
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 809
United_States
Offline
Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
Josh Brown wrote: View Post
Do we not gain aiki by training, learning techniques?
The prevailing view among aiki first proponents is no, you can't develop aiki via the practice of technique. Personally, I think that's just a marketing gimmick. There are many ways of training mind and body to work in unison in order to develop aiki, the study of aikido being just one.

Ron

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2018, 11:36 PM   #21
shizentai
Location: CA
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 16
United_States
Offline
Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Oh boy.
You can't counter the objective truth with "oh boy".
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2018, 03:51 AM   #22
Nicholas Eschenbruch
Dojo: TV Denzlingen
Location: Freiburg
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 323
Germany
Offline
Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
You can't counter the objective truth with "oh boy".
Oh boy
I wish I had the objective truth about anything really.

What is shown on those initial vids is shown to beginners in the three major lineages I have been exposed to (Nocquet, Saito, Yamaguchi).
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2018, 10:32 AM   #23
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 333
Serbia
Offline
Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
Josh Brown wrote: View Post
Isn't that akin to putting the cart before the horse?

Do we not gain aiki by training, learning techniques?
Nope, as Ron also confirmed, by the words of aiki people you don't gain aiki by doing techniques.

Quote:
If you want to race in the Daytona 500, you first have to learn how to drive.
And aiki would be the driving part actually. However, in all respect to them, you didn't NEED aiki to successfully perform the techniques, it mostly comes down to what is determined as successful in the given context.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2018, 01:20 PM   #24
MRoh
Location: Düsseldorf
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 203
Germany
Offline
Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
The techniques of aikido are used to develope aiki but are not for self defense. Therefore aiki is not for self defense?
The techniques of aikido derived from jujutsu, some of them exist in several ryuha.
What is unique in a specific ryû is the way they are combined with a special way of taisabaki or bodymechanic.
The techniques were created to be used in real fight.
The method of training or executing them in Aikido is a different matter, but the origin is the same.
In aikido they are used as a training tool to develope bodyskills, maybe to develop aiki if it's correctly done.
Developing fighting skills is another aim, even aiki is not a garant for being able to fght.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2018, 11:25 AM   #25
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 333
Serbia
Offline
Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1LpFp4nifM - here's a one on Ushiro Kubishime:
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 23 Peter Goldsbury Columns 6 05-18-2013 07:52 AM
I'm Leaving Aikido Daniel Ranger-Holt General 122 10-07-2010 09:01 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 14 Peter Goldsbury Columns 38 08-01-2009 12:19 AM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 12 Peter Goldsbury Columns 32 05-16-2009 07:05 PM
Omoto-kyo Theology senshincenter Spiritual 77 12-04-2005 10:50 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:38 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2018 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2018 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate