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Old 06-11-2017, 12:19 AM   #26
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

If you haven't got their balance ... you have no chance of getting ikkyo. If you truly have their balance ... they have no way to counter.

100% of ikkyo problems are a lack of taking balance, or, uke regaining balance (due to tori error or uke craft) shortly after.

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Old 06-11-2017, 05:38 AM   #27
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
If you haven't got their balance ... you have no chance of getting ikkyo. If you truly have their balance ... they have no way to counter.

100% of ikkyo problems are a lack of taking balance, or, uke regaining balance (due to tori error or uke craft) shortly after.
Which begs the question when is ikkyo ikkyo? For me the final pin has nothing to do with the technique. Oshitaoshi (Shodokan parlance) is all about catching and taking balance. Done with proper timing under the correct circumstance it is brutally effective and very very difficult to resist.

Done as a kneeling technique is the only time I practice the straight down and bury version. Here there really is no place for uke to escape to.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-16-2017, 02:47 PM   #28
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

Hello altogether,

as a long time practioneer in germany (sorry for my poor language knowledge ;-)) I'm reading and surching a lot of those typical problems with some aikido waza - thanks to YT and other stuff in www it is nowadays a little bit easier ;-)

Two years ago, I found some stuff in YT from Mr. Ryuki Hajime, which I find very helpful - alltough aikido, he is very uncommon in his explanations (and also in his appearance), I think.
Here is an example of his" Ikkyo-version" (starting with explaining from sword (shinai) - the arm-movement beginns at 7:35).
What I found interesting ist, that he goes direct in the line of attac and the contact point is on uke's shomenuchi (and weight) on the way downward and not upward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzBqN-QQ6tw&t=169s

In this form I find, an escape is very diffucult - does anybody eventually know Mr. Hajime and his aikido lineague ? There is a lot of stuff over a decade or more in his channel with some very unusual explanations of - I would say - standard aikido waza, but with no doubt not aikikai or iwama or any other standard I would know.

Best regards from germany
Rosinante
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Old 06-18-2017, 08:35 PM   #29
tarik
 
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

Quote:
Stefan Hultberg wrote: View Post
There are many ways to "escape" ikkyo -- and many ways to stop the escape. There is one particular way to escape ikkyo, though, that I find troubling. Certainly some atemi, good old hair grabbing, a pencil in the nostril could solve the problem, but I'm looking for an elegant, aikido-like solution to my problem.

...snip...

Does anybody have a suggestion on how to optimally stop uke from rolling out of "my" basic ikkyo?
Please let me know if it sounds like I've confused left/right or something else somewhere, damn it's not easy to describe techniques in text !!
Tough talking about things this technical online without hands on, but here's my take.

At your first touch, you should be taking uke and destroying their ability to remain standing without being dependent upon your connection. If you've acheived this, speed or timing is no longer a solution you need to utilize.

I'm often amazed at how much people push upwards on their uke in the process of making techniques, and ikkyo is one of the places where I've seen that the most. Pushing upward invariably means that you're standing uke up rather than the inverse, and uke has many more choices to escape.

FWIW, there are always 'escapes' built into any set of body relationships during technique. It's the nature of these things.

Tarik

Tarik Ghbeish
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Old 06-19-2017, 09:04 AM   #30
asiawide
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
Tough talking about things this technical online without hands on, but here's my take.

At your first touch, you should be taking uke and destroying their ability to remain standing without being dependent upon your connection. If you've acheived this, speed or timing is no longer a solution you need to utilize.

I'm often amazed at how much people push upwards on their uke in the process of making techniques, and ikkyo is one of the places where I've seen that the most. Pushing upward invariably means that you're standing uke up rather than the inverse, and uke has many more choices to escape.

FWIW, there are always 'escapes' built into any set of body relationships during technique. It's the nature of these things.

Tarik
I think I know what you talk about and it feels like folding uke as if compressing an empty coke can. So all -kyo wazas feel like nikyo. Btw, there are still room for escaping if uke keeps(or at least tries to keep) his own balance. Nage becomes very prone to counter when he folds uke through his arms. So uke can take balance of nage and reverse the waza. I'm not sure it's applicable out of lab(mat) but worthwhile to try. Rupert Atkinson and me were working together with this and he may chime in further discussing.

Jaemin
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Old 06-19-2017, 03:07 PM   #31
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
If you haven't got their balance ... you have no chance of getting ikkyo. If you truly have their balance ... they have no way to counter.

100% of ikkyo problems are a lack of taking balance, or, uke regaining balance (due to tori error or uke craft) shortly after.
Exactly what I was going to say, ikkyo isn't much to do with the arm, my teacher often demonstrates it holding your fingertips with a very gentle touch that's taken me almost ten years to begin to approximate.
You can't do that unless you've already got their balance.

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 06-19-2017, 04:35 PM   #32
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

Two ways to escape, by force or skill. force will only work if you are significantly strong enough to overpower uke, and he is unskilled enough to let it happen. And a skillful escape requires compliance to the point of neuralization. Basically they let you apply the technique, and don't resist. This also neutralizes the aggression.... good luck (sorry i meant to say, you let them apply the ikkyo)... grammar mistake....
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Old 06-20-2017, 01:13 PM   #33
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

Quote:
Jaemin Yu wrote: View Post
I think I know what you talk about and it feels like folding uke as if compressing an empty coke can. So all -kyo wazas feel like nikyo. Btw, there are still room for escaping if uke keeps(or at least tries to keep) his own balance. Nage becomes very prone to counter when he folds uke through his arms. So uke can take balance of nage and reverse the waza. I'm not sure it's applicable out of lab(mat) but worthwhile to try. Rupert Atkinson and me were working together with this and he may chime in further discussing.

Jaemin
Jaemin was my student in Korea for 10 years. Then I left. Then I went back. Jaemin was then a senior programmer at Samsung = smart. Very smart. Probably not many smarter. And he had/has been studying this n that. Aiki / Aunkai / anything. He was/is now my teacher. I am now back in NZ and trying to figure it all out!

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Old 06-26-2017, 01:51 PM   #34
tarik
 
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

Quote:
Jaemin Yu wrote: View Post
I think I know what you talk about and it feels like folding uke as if compressing an empty coke can. So all -kyo wazas feel like nikyo. Btw, there are still room for escaping if uke keeps(or at least tries to keep) his own balance.
I don't even see it as an escape. My view is that it's not balance that uke needs to keep, but posture (or control of tanden to describe it another way). If they keep their posture, they can easily repair their 'balance' and reverse the relationship, taking back sente (initiative) far deeper into receiving a technique than most people except. I can 'reverse' many people while they are still sinking into the pin after the throw if they've given away too much.

Quote:
Jaemin Yu wrote: View Post
Nage becomes very prone to counter when he folds uke through his arms. So uke can take balance of nage and reverse the waza. I'm not sure it's applicable out of lab(mat) but worthwhile to try.
I think outside the lab requires a different type of experimentation, one that might not be prone to acceptable interactions with those around you.

IME with some recent unintentional encounters (not really attacks, but situations) where people accidentally bumped into me, this operated because instead of entirely losing my balance, I kept my alignment, put my foot down in a new place without even thinking about it, and they bounced off of me and I caught them just by reaching out and changing their vector so that they fell back onto balance instead of on the ground. It was both surprising and interesting at the same time because I could feel myself deciding to save them instead of finishing them all in an instant. And none of it looking like technique, because it wasn't.

Tarik Ghbeish
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Old 06-20-2019, 07:07 PM   #35
gezznz
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

While the form of ikkyo looks like it is forward, I was taught that the feeling is straight down. Thus, in a perfectly executed ikkyo, the uke's legs fly up as their chest goes into the mat. There is no option to roll out on their left arm, which needs to hit the mat first to stop a face plant. This requires a fully-committed attack and a completely non-resistant defence.

Best regards,
Gerald

www.mindbodyaikido.com

Last edited by gezznz : 06-20-2019 at 07:09 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 07-13-2019, 03:26 PM   #36
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

Quote:
Gerald Lopez wrote: View Post
While the form of ikkyo looks like it is forward, I was taught that the feeling is straight down. Thus, in a perfectly executed ikkyo, the uke's legs fly up as their chest goes into the mat. There is no option to roll out on their left arm, which needs to hit the mat first to stop a face plant. This requires a fully-committed attack and a completely non-resistant defence.
Looking forward to a video where you demostrates the concepts you mentioned,

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Old 07-14-2019, 06:40 AM   #37
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

Something like Henry Kono used to do maybe?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfG8SOPf1yI

Second half of this video.

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Naturally having something useful to say is like natural responses during training: It takes much practice.
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Old 07-15-2019, 02:12 PM   #38
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

Quote:
Amos Barnett wrote: View Post
Something like Henry Kono used to do maybe?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfG8SOPf1yI

Second half of this video.
I am skeptical of feeble attacks countered with vigor, the uke jumps really well though.

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Old 08-07-2019, 01:07 AM   #39
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

There are many things in larger context of grappling which can be done to uke who rolls out of ikkyo.

However, since Aikido is heavily shaped by its pacifist philosophy, the Aikido response to uke rolling out of ikkyo should not involve pursuing him, locking him down or otherwise punishing him. He's currently not attacking you, right?

So perhaps the response is actually about doing nothing. It's not a practical response, but it is an Aikido one.
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Old 08-07-2019, 09:44 AM   #40
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
There are many things in larger context of grappling which can be done to uke who rolls out of ikkyo.

However, since Aikido is heavily shaped by its pacifist philosophy, the Aikido response to uke rolling out of ikkyo should not involve pursuing him, locking him down or otherwise punishing him. He's currently not attacking you, right?

So perhaps the response is actually about doing nothing. It's not a practical response, but it is an Aikido one.
Escapes has the wrong connotation I think. The technical term is "reverses". The attitude you are describing is incompatible with the situation where the attacker reverses with the intent to cause you harm.

Btw, there is a funny story about the second doshu and pacifism.

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Old 08-07-2019, 02:25 PM   #41
jamesf
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Escapes has the wrong connotation I think. The technical term is "reverses". The attitude you are describing is incompatible with the situation where the attacker reverses with the intent to cause you harm.

Btw, there is a funny story about the second doshu and pacifism.
In terms of grappling jargon, "escape" refers to getting free from an inferior position to a neutral position, it does not mean the entire combative situation has been escaped or de-escalated. "Reversal" on the other hand is switching from an inferior position to a superior one.
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Old 08-07-2019, 04:14 PM   #42
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Escapes has the wrong connotation I think. The technical term is "reverses". The attitude you are describing is incompatible with the situation where the attacker reverses with the intent to cause you harm.
Rolling out of ikkyo is not a reversal, but an escape. It's not dissimilar from "rolling out of omoplata" in ground grappling context, where it's also an escape. In both cases the escapee remains in an inferior position, he's not immediately set to turn the tables.

In Aikido philosophy context this means let him go. Of course my personal philosophy would say, maintain control and only let go when the attacker calmed down.
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Old 08-09-2019, 03:01 PM   #43
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post

In Aikido philosophy context this means let him go. Of course my personal philosophy would say, maintain control and only let go when the attacker calmed down.
There is no Aikido Philosophy, just individuals impressing their own philosophy in their Aikido training.
Technically it is a reversal and once you have control you can do whatever your personal philosophy dictates.
David

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Old 08-09-2019, 03:41 PM   #44
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
There is no Aikido Philosophy, just individuals impressing their own philosophy in their Aikido training.
Technically it is a reversal and once you have control you can do whatever your personal philosophy dictates.
David
Aikido dojos are typically restrictive in what you're actually allowed to do during practice... so, no.
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Old 08-09-2019, 07:50 PM   #45
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

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Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
Aikido dojos are typically restrictive in what you're actually allowed to do during practice... so, no.
Not all dojos practice under the same phiosophy.

You would do after the reversal what the philosophy of that dojo dictates. If it's an escape then escape.

dps

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Old 09-08-2019, 03:42 PM   #46
MrIggy
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

Seriously now, which "philosophy" has what to do with a technical body positioning movement? And where the hell do you find dojos that make a difference between an escape and reversal based on philosophy?

Last edited by MrIggy : 09-08-2019 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 09-10-2019, 05:39 PM   #47
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Seriously now, which "philosophy" has what to do with a technical body positioning movement?
For example, Aikido philosophy dictates what is done from the moment of kotegaeshi throw. You could step on uke's neck, but you don't, because that's not "the art of peace". You could transition into an armbar, but you don't, because Aikido's philosophy is based around fleeting engagement, where you don't get entangled. It values unreliable kneeling pins over ne-waza controls, because it prioritizes freedom of movement. What do you do after irimi nage? Do you pin uke down, hit him? Nothing. Are you ever allowed to choke uke? Nope.

These are distinct decisions based on Aikido philosophy.

Quote:
And where the hell do you find dojos that make a difference between an escape and reversal based on philosophy?
There is a clear difference between an escape and a reversal. Escape ends the encounter, reversal continues it, but shifts the balance of power.
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Old 09-12-2019, 05:41 AM   #48
MrIggy
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
For example, Aikido philosophy dictates what is done from the moment of kotegaeshi throw. You could step on uke's neck, but you don't, because that's not "the art of peace".
What happens after the "throw" is mostly what your instructor taught you to do. "Aikido philosophy" has nothing to do with that. For instance I've been shown how to kick uke in the head as one of the options. And that's something that my instructor was taught by the Japanese instructors etc.

Quote:
You could transition into an armbar, but you don't, because Aikido's philosophy is based around fleeting engagement, where you don't get entangled. It values unreliable kneeling pins over ne-waza controls, because it prioritizes freedom of movement.
First, why would you transition from a superior position to a position where you have to use your whole body weight and movement to hold down one of uke's limbs? If the dude has a weapon in the hand and that's your only means of getting it out then fine. Perhaps even pinning him while backup comes along but I know several better options for that. Second, the knee pins aren't unreliable, it's how you use them that's reliable or not otherwise cops wouldn't use them all the time. Anytime you see a cop using a full body katame waza technique on somebody he either made a mistake or that's the last line of defense (meaning he made a mistake in the first place).

Quote:
What do you do after irimi nage? Do you pin uke down, hit him? Nothing. Are you ever allowed to choke uke? Nope.
In iriminage you already have hits aka atemis installed in the technique. As for what you mentioned, you realize that at higher levels (black belt levels) you have variations that contain what you just wrote? Although I don't like the fact they aren't emphasized earlier

Here's one from the NY Aikikai, starting at 1:15 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05hBVD0tHgg

Quote:
There is a clear difference between an escape and a reversal. Escape ends the encounter, reversal continues it, but shifts the balance of power.
What I asked was which dojos make a difference based on "philosophy" and how do they actually do that. For the record, one on the counters I learned for iriminage was ippon seoi nage.

Last edited by MrIggy : 09-12-2019 at 05:44 AM.
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Old 09-12-2019, 05:43 PM   #49
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

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Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
stuff
The picture of Aikido you paint, with people kicking uke in the head and choking them on regular basis, does not align with the reality of how Aikido is practiced and seen around the world.

This is also known as: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman

Quote:
Second, the knee pins aren't unreliable, it's how you use them that's reliable or not otherwise cops wouldn't use them all the time. Anytime you see a cop using a full body katame waza technique on somebody he either made a mistake or that's the last line of defense (meaning he made a mistake in the first place).
More "No True Scotsman" seen here, plus "moving the goalposts". I didn't say "knee pins", I said "Aikido kneeling pins" are unreliable, because they are.

Quote:
What I asked was which dojos make a difference based on "philosophy" and how do they actually do that. For the record, one on the counters I learned for iriminage was ippon seoi nage.
I have no idea what this means. It is clear, however, that Aikido has a guiding philosophy in the way the majority of it is practiced. Partially it is derived from battlefield tactics, partially from being neutered with messages of pacifism.
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Old 09-13-2019, 12:50 PM   #50
MrIggy
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Re: Escape from ikkyo ??

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
The picture of Aikido you paint, with people kicking uke in the head and choking them on regular basis, does not align with the reality of how Aikido is practiced and seen around the world.

This is also known as: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman
And off course I didn't write this anywhere so it turns into a quasi logical bullshit argument on your part. Bravo.

Quote:
[More "No True Scotsman" seen here, plus "moving the goalposts". I didn't say "knee pins", I said "Aikido kneeling pins" are unreliable, because they are.
No, it's because you don't know how to properly use them.

Quote:
I have no idea what this means. It is clear, however, that Aikido has a guiding philosophy in the way the majority of it is practiced. Partially it is derived from battlefield tactics, partially from being neutered with messages of pacifism.
The biggest part is the lack of knowledge present in the general population. Like the one you displayed here and on several other posts.
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