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Old 05-21-2017, 03:16 PM   #1
MrIggy
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Aikido™

Since there is no History forum on Aikiweb i will ask the question here. Besides O'Sensei's AikiBudo (Aoi ryu) which other martial arts where supposed to be joined under the umbrella term "Aikido™"in the ButokuKai organization? Daito ryu Aikijujutsu perhaps or was it just for O'Sensei's art?
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Old 05-22-2017, 04:31 AM   #2
Ellis Amdur
 
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Re: Aikido™

Igor - that's a great 'Emperor's New Clothes' question. The conventional wisdom, which I've accepted - and may be true - is that the term 'aikido' was selected as a catch all for any and all koryu grappling type arts (torite, jujutsu, kenpo, kogusoku, etc). The idea being that whatever name was chosen, those referred to by a different name (yawara as opposed to koshi-no-mawari, for example) would choose to be insulted.
Hirai sensei had experience with Takeuchi-ryu as well as a number of other arts, and was actually "During World War II, Hirai was the head of the jujutsu department of the Japanese Army's military police school and was instrumental in developing a new arrest technique employed by the military police." So, somehow, he was, even then regarded as far more than Ueshiba's student.

But it's a fair question if there was actually a 'category' of aikido that subsumed all these arts. I just did a cursory search in Japanese, and it was actually a little hard to find references that weren't related to sites associated with Hirai Minoru. I wonder if it was Hirai's own 'baby' within the Butokukai - and never really went anywhere in terms of organization or enrollment. Remember that Hirai, although the general manager of the Kobukan, claimed/regarded himself as a younger peer of Ueshiba, not a student, and that what he was doing was a form of parallel evolution. I wonder if, in fact, the only 'members' of the Aikido-bu were Ueshiba's aikibudo and Hirai's Kogado.

Ellis Amdur

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Old 05-22-2017, 11:24 PM   #3
crbateman
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Re: Aikido™

And any thoughts on Nihon Goshin Aikido?
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Old 05-22-2017, 11:32 PM   #4
Ellis Amdur
 
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Re: Aikido™

Clark - as best as I understand it, that was a tiny entity in the far north, that no one would have been aware of - or considered important enough to care about back at that time.

Ellis

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Old 05-23-2017, 11:52 AM   #5
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Re: Aikido™

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Clark - as best as I understand it, that was a tiny entity in the far north, that no one would have been aware of - or considered important enough to care about back at that time.

Ellis
Thanks, Ellis. I knew it was a Daito-Ryu splinter, exclusive of Ueshiba influence, but I had not seen much about its regard in that time period. Not sure if the "Aikido" designation was taken, rather than given.
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Old 05-25-2017, 08:56 PM   #6
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Re: Aikido™

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Igor - that's a great 'Emperor's New Clothes' question. The conventional wisdom, which I've accepted - and may be true - is that the term 'aikido' was selected as a catch all for any and all koryu grappling type arts (torite, jujutsu, kenpo, kogusoku, etc). The idea being that whatever name was chosen, those referred to by a different name (yawara as opposed to koshi-no-mawari, for example) would choose to be insulted.
Hirai sensei had experience with Takeuchi-ryu as well as a number of other arts, and was actually "During World War II, Hirai was the head of the jujutsu department of the Japanese Army's military police school and was instrumental in developing a new arrest technique employed by the military police." So, somehow, he was, even then regarded as far more than Ueshiba's student.
That is one of the things that puzzle me. Didn't all koryu arts also deal with weapons? Be it defense against weapons or having a weapon curriculum?.
By this link http://www.koryu.com/guide/takenouchi.html, Takenouchi ryu also had various weapons curricula. The only koryu that i can think of that didn't have techniques with weapons was Kito ryu and even those throws were officially presumed to be done in full armor.

By the standards presented also by you in your book Dueling with O'Sensei AikiBudo was definitely not a koryu. I don't know what was Hirai doing at the time but if it was similar to what we know today as Korindo Aikido it was also most definitely not a koryu. Did they basically just try to take out all of the taijutsu techniques from various arts and group them under one singular term? Also would that mean that many arts of the time actually had some mentioning of a term similar to "Aiki" in them?

Quote:
But it's a fair question if there was actually a 'category' of aikido that subsumed all these arts. I just did a cursory search in Japanese, and it was actually a little hard to find references that weren't related to sites associated with Hirai Minoru. I wonder if it was Hirai's own 'baby' within the Butokukai - and never really went anywhere in terms of organization or enrollment. Remember that Hirai, although the general manager of the Kobukan, claimed/regarded himself as a younger peer of Ueshiba, not a student, and that what he was doing was a form of parallel evolution. I wonder if, in fact, the only 'members' of the Aikido-bu were Ueshiba's aikibudo and Hirai's Kogado.

Ellis Amdur
This would seem to be the only logical explanation.
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Old 05-26-2017, 12:12 AM   #7
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Re: Aikido™

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
That is one of the things that puzzle me. Didn't all koryu arts also deal with weapons? Be it defense against weapons or having a weapon curriculum?.
By this link http://www.koryu.com/guide/takenouchi.html, Takenouchi ryu also had various weapons curricula. The only koryu that i can think of that didn't have techniques with weapons was Kito ryu and even those throws were officially presumed to be done in full armor.

By the standards presented also by you in your book Dueling with O'Sensei AikiBudo was definitely not a koryu. I don't know what was Hirai doing at the time but if it was similar to what we know today as Korindo Aikido it was also most definitely not a koryu. Did they basically just try to take out all of the taijutsu techniques from various arts and group them under one singular term? Also would that mean that many arts of the time actually had some mentioning of a term similar to "Aiki" in them?

This would seem to be the only logical explanation.
1. Kito-ryu used to have a variety of weaponry in its curriculum
2. The term 'koryu' was a fluid term. And a focus on when ryu were developed and defining some as koryu and some not is a modern preoccupation. The Kobudo Shinkokai (society to preserve kobudo) was only established in 1935, because the older ryu were 'already,' at that time, largely abandoned.
3. Again - what Hirai seems to state is that Aikido was a basket term for all grappling based arts that were not judo within the Nippon Butokukai. But as I wrote below, that may not have been the case at all.
4. Hirai's position within Ueshiba's organization is actually rather odd. He was the general manager of the dojo/organization, yet he maintains that he was separate, that he'd created his own martial art from his variety of studies - that, nonetheless, really looks a lot like aikido. Parallel evolution? Why, in fact, is it called Korindo Aikido, which is sort of like Kendo Iaido or Judo Karatedo. Yet I've never seen anything, even obliquely, from the Aikikai that criticized or questioned Korindo.
5. Anyway, the only way to get an answer to this is contacting someone who is plugged in to the prewar history of the Butokukai. I will make an attempt and get back.

Ellis Amdur

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Old 05-26-2017, 04:06 AM   #8
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Aikido™

Required reading here is Denis Gainty's Martial Arts and the Body Politic in Meiji Japan. The book is a history of the Butokokai from its origins until 1945. It was published by Routledge in 2013.

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Old 05-26-2017, 11:44 AM   #9
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Re: Aikido™

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Required reading here is Denis Gainty's Martial Arts and the Body Politic in Meiji Japan. The book is a history of the Butokokai from its origins until 1945. It was published by Routledge in 2013.
Thank you for the book mister Goldsbury.
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Old 05-26-2017, 12:01 PM   #10
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Re: Aikido™

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
1. Kito-ryu used to have a variety of weaponry in its curriculum
I didn't know this. Interesting to say the least.

Quote:
3. Again - what Hirai seems to state is that Aikido was a basket term for all grappling based arts that were not judo within the Nippon Butokukai. But as I wrote below, that may not have been the case at all.
One puzzle solved and another emerges.

Quote:
4. Hirai's position within Ueshiba's organization is actually rather odd. He was the general manager of the dojo/organization, yet he maintains that he was separate, that he'd created his own martial art from his variety of studies - that, nonetheless, really looks a lot like aikido. Parallel evolution? Why, in fact, is it called Korindo Aikido, which is sort of like Kendo Iaido or Judo Karatedo. Yet I've never seen anything, even obliquely, from the Aikikai that criticized or questioned Korindo .
Mutual Welfare and Benefit

Quote:
5. Anyway, the only way to get an answer to this is contacting someone who is plugged in to the prewar history of the Butokukai. I will make an attempt and get back.

Ellis Amdur
I hope your attempt is successful.
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Old 06-05-2017, 07:44 AM   #11
Amir Krause
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Re: Aikido™

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
4. Hirai's position within Ueshiba's organization is actually rather odd. He was the general manager of the dojo/organization, yet he maintains that he was separate, that he'd created his own martial art from his variety of studies - that, nonetheless, really looks a lot like aikido. Parallel evolution? Why, in fact, is it called Korindo Aikido, which is sort of like Kendo Iaido or Judo Karatedo. Yet I've never seen anything, even obliquely, from the Aikikai that criticized or questioned Korindo.
5. Anyway, the only way to get an answer to this is contacting someone who is plugged in to the prewar history of the Butokukai. I will make an attempt and get back.

Ellis Amdur
As a student of Korindo aikido, I do have a couple of comments on 4, from items which were told to me (not real historical proof):
a. Hirai was a teacher starting his own path already before he moved to Tokyo and took the role of "general manager of the dojo/organization". Further, Hirai moved from this position to the position in the Butokukai. As far as my teacher asked in the "new Butokukai", they claim back then there were no "representatives", definitly not for Ueshiba (I would guess back then he was not considered too important himself).

b. Maybe it's just me, and my very limited experience, or the passing of time. But in the one lesson I did take with Takanaouchi ryu, I found that "korindo aikido" looked very much like it, as much as to Ueshiba Aikido. Then again, I see the same similarity viewing other styles of Japanese Ju-Jutsu (either that or similarity to Judo or some combination).

Amir

P.S.
And as Hirai explained in the past the name "Aikido" itself is not even his own suggestion.
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Old 06-05-2017, 09:56 AM   #12
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Re: Aikido™

Mr. Amir - Thanks for your response. I'm fascinated with Hirai sensei, in part for the prestige he had and also for his apparent ability to negotiate the politics of association with Ueshiba Morihei so well.

There are quite a lot of videos of Takenouchi-ryu, this being one.

And here is Hirai sensei's Korindo (one of four) - I chose this, even though it's blurry, so that one can actually see HIrai sensei. I really do not see much similarity, except in the most general sense that both are doing Japanese martial arts.

I've read through some prewar lists of schools enrolled in the Butokukai as well as skimmed Martial Arts and the Body Politic in Meiji Japan (where neither aikido nor Daito-ryu is not mentioned). There was a jujutsu section, going back to the very beginnings of the Butokukai and many ryu were involved - it was, not surprisingly, dominated by judo. There was certainly no conflict between the various ryu whose name would be used, contrary to my previous understanding of this account.

It seems clear that the account that all grappling schools were subsumed under the rubric of aikido is incorrect. Rather, aikibudo was important enough (Tojo Hideki, Prince Konoye, and innumerable generals, admirals and politicians were involved) that they had to have a place for it in the Butokukai. They changed the name to aikido to fit with the other sections (judo, kendo, etc) - rather than something significant to the larger budo world, it was a minor administrative entry of one martial art into their membership.

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Old 06-05-2017, 05:11 PM   #13
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Re: Aikido™

In fact, Dai Nippon Butokukai registered Aikido as one of the martial arts. Correct me if I'm wrong it should be Ueshiba mainline. Daito-ryu registered separately.

Talks about Aikido among other modern martial arts could lead to unusual conclusions.
For example this. According to this article, grandmasters of Aikido, Judo and different Okinawa Karate branches share the same tatami in Kodokan. No wonder if sometimes they practice together and share each other.
Some moves from Seiryu could be found in Nishio Budo that is a part of Aikido.

Looks like numerous koryu schools has the similar idea also. Two comes into my mind - Shinkage-ryu and Shishin Takuma-ryu.

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Old 06-06-2017, 12:23 AM   #14
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido™

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
As a student of Korindo aikido, I do have a couple of comments on 4, from items which were told to me (not real historical proof):
a. Hirai was a teacher starting his own path already before he moved to Tokyo and took the role of "general manager of the dojo/organization". Further, Hirai moved from this position to the position in the Butokukai. As far as my teacher asked in the "new Butokukai", they claim back then there were no "representatives", definitly not for Ueshiba (I would guess back then he was not considered too important himself).
So what was his actual position inside of the Butokukai organization? The man who was once the head of the Japanese Army military police jujutsu department sure would be much appreciated in such an organization. Not to mention being the Director of General Affairs of the infamous Kobukan "Hell dojo" , which was also visited by many known people of the time, would add quite the "spice" to his resume.

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Old 06-06-2017, 12:56 AM   #15
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Re: Aikido™

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
There was certainly no conflict between the various ryu whose name would be used, contrary to my previous understanding of this account.
Now this is interesting.

Quote:
It seems clear that the account that all grappling schools were subsumed under the rubric of aikido is incorrect. Rather, aikibudo was important enough (Tojo Hideki, Prince Konoye, and innumerable generals, admirals and politicians were involved) that they had to have a place for it in the Butokukai. They changed the name to aikido to fit with the other sections (judo, kendo, etc) - rather than something significant to the larger budo world, it was a minor administrative entry of one martial art into their membership.
So in the end it comes down to: Ueshiba-ha Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu --->Aikid-budo(Aioi ryu)--->Aikido or is there something in between i am not aware about?
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Old 06-06-2017, 01:25 AM   #16
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Re: Aikido™

It was never called Ueshiba-ha Daito-ryu. Ueshiba called what he did Daito-ryu and issued makimono in that name. After the break with Takeda, Aikibudo (there was a brief period where he referred to his art as Kobu(something), linking to the Emperor. I do not believe he ever had a dojo of Aioi-ryu. Rather, he used the term to refer, after-the-fact, to a period of his own training (and not explicitly - he would say something like, "I studied Kashima-ryu, Yagyu-ryu Aioi-ryu . . . .Given he took whatever he saw and per Sugino, then would say, "In Aiki, we do that this way . . ." - I don't think he made much distinction between what he 'stole' and what were his own changed slants on Daito-ryu.

And there was, to my knowledge, no Daito-ryu enrolled in the Butokukai.

Ellis Amdur

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Old 06-06-2017, 02:11 AM   #17
Amir Krause
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Re: Aikido™

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Mr. Amir - Thanks for your response. I'm fascinated with Hirai sensei, in part for the prestige he had and also for his apparent ability to negotiate the politics of association with Ueshiba Morihei so well.

There are quite a lot of videos of Takenouchi-ryu, this being one.

And here is Hirai sensei's Korindo (one of four) - I chose this, even though it's blurry, so that one can actually see HIrai sensei. I really do not see much similarity, except in the most general sense that both are doing Japanese martial arts.

I've read through some prewar lists of schools enrolled in the Butokukai as well as skimmed Martial Arts and the Body Politic in Meiji Japan (where neither aikido nor Daito-ryu is not mentioned). There was a jujutsu section, going back to the very beginnings of the Butokukai and many ryu were involved - it was, not surprisingly, dominated by judo. There was certainly no conflict between the various ryu whose name would be used, contrary to my previous understanding of this account.

It seems clear that the account that all grappling schools were subsumed under the rubric of aikido is incorrect. Rather, aikibudo was important enough (Tojo Hideki, Prince Konoye, and innumerable generals, admirals and politicians were involved) that they had to have a place for it in the Butokukai. They changed the name to aikido to fit with the other sections (judo, kendo, etc) - rather than something significant to the larger budo world, it was a minor administrative entry of one martial art into their membership.
Mr Ellis

I have the greatest respect for those like you, who actually investigate the details of the martial arts history. And if someone like you would dedicate his time to finding more facts, it would be great. Since I am still left with many questions as to many items in Korindo Aikido own history and origin.

As to own feeling of similarity, I was talking of feeling during practice. As I have said, I see similar concepts and techniques throughout many Japanese Marital Arts, and, when coming to practice in Takenouchi-ryu that singluar time, I had the same feeling of similar yet slightly different I had when visiting and training in an Aikikai dojo.

I think these videos comparing Korindo to Takenouchi-ryu are misleading in one sense, as they are comparing Kata with Free flow practice.

Further, in own opinion, I would guess the reality here is very much in peoples minds. And I am not so even sure if there was one truth here. I would guess Ueshiba, if asked, would have seen Hirai as his representative in the Butokukai, and as his student.
While Hirai, at same time, consistently saw himself as standing on his own and not as a student Ueshiba, moving to Tokyo for administrative role, after he started defining his own martial arts path. Later progressing into more established role (teaching military police - I was not aware of this, and a job as an official of the Butokukai). It may also be that he intended the Aikido name to become generic, but never got there with the war progression.
I doubt Hirai could have gone through the period with Ueshiba without being influenced. I was told he had been influenced by his own students, so not changing while seeing Ueshiba and many others, and probably, training with them, would be atypical. I do have the impression this influence was less than Daito-ryu influence on Ueshiba. Hence, if Ueshiba is considered a founder of his own martial art, I think Hirai definitely deserves the same title (to a much smaller martial art).

I do have multiple open questions related to Korindo history:

1. This video of Hirai shows him doing two portions of practice: Single Tai-Sabaki and some Randori (actually, we call this "Half Randori" - as t only one side attacks and the other counters/defends). I wonder what is the origin of either of these types of practice ?
It's definitely not Ueshiba Aikido, as it does not have either of these elements, which are fundamental in Korindo Aikido (I would sat practice has 3 equal parts: Tai-Sabaki, Kata (or scripted Techniques) and Randori.

2. Hirai is said to had been a teacher of nito (twi swrds), yet Korindo Practice has very little Nito, and most Nito I learned came from a student who was teaching Kata from various Ryuha.

3. (in many ways, this is similar to 2nd question) It appears Hirai considered himself very open in terms of curriculum, letting some students add Kata into it, in fact it seems he was more open to add such Kata then Kata he himself had learned. I know of few Korindo invented Kata, and have heard claims they were not even fully formalized Kata, and of several adapted Kata from Koryu, but not from the Ryuha Hirai learnt and taught. How come? How come Takenouchi-ryu Kata are not in this curriculum?

4. Korindo Aikido is teaching 3d "hara" movement, where does it come from?
I have trained Aikikai for a while, they would not even talk of anything similar. Having met a Takenouchi-ryu teacher, when he was training korindo for a while, he said they had something similar, not sure.

5. I was told the term "aiki" was actually rather popular in the martial arts community of early 20th century, and several martial arts were adopting this, is this true? which?

I do have one more comment: as a student of over 25 years, I can see the practice keeps changing, even in same dojo, people keep aging, evolving and changing, and so do ideas. I am not even 100% I would have felt our own practice is same as it was 15 years back. I am not sure how much this history and knowing of origins should change current reality.

Thanks
Amir

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Old 06-06-2017, 02:21 AM   #18
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido™

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Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
It was never called Ueshiba-ha Daito-ryu. Ueshiba called what he did Daito-ryu and issued makimono in that name. After the break with Takeda, Aikibudo (there was a brief period where he referred to his art as Kobu(something), linking to the Emperor. I do not believe he ever had a dojo of Aioi-ryu. Rather, he used the term to refer, after-the-fact, to a period of his own training (and not explicitly - he would say something like, "I studied Kashima-ryu, Yagyu-ryu Aioi-ryu . . . .Given he took whatever he saw and per Sugino, then would say, "In Aiki, we do that this way . . ." - I don't think he made much distinction between what he 'stole' and what were his own changed slants on Daito-ryu.

And there was, to my knowledge, no Daito-ryu enrolled in the Butokukai.

Ellis Amdur
Yes I know. I was referring to the post from the Aikido Sangenkai: http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/...-aiki-jujutsu/, meaning although he still called his art Daito ryu, at that time it was probably filled with certain aspects that he himself added thus the "Ueshiba Ha" that i added although in context of the post it was not correct.

But as you wrote it was Daito ryu, Aiki-budo and then Aikido. Aikido being the amalgamation of his pursuit in encompassing all the aspects that he learned, "stole", under the single postulate of Aiki.
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Old 08-20-2017, 10:12 AM   #19
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Re: Aikido™

Hiroshi Tada also gives his contribution to the subject, from 7:40 to 9:07: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cdvwx0iwgKI

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Old 11-01-2017, 02:11 AM   #20
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido™

"I'm not sure about the 1930's, but I've seen certificates with "Aikido" listed as early as 1940...." - Chris Li

"Are there any pictures of them?..." - Igor Vojnović

"Just a fragment of a scroll (Aikido as the art name), no dan ranks, at least none that I know of, until 1942." - Chris Li


So it seems that the name "Aikido" was in official use before 1942.

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