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Old 06-04-2017, 06:24 AM   #1
Petrus
Dojo: Enso Dojo in Perth,Australia
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Kendo as training aid?

Could learning Kendo help one's Aikido?
If there is any martial art where you can launch
a very fast attack with no holding back and without
fear of injury then it would have to be Kendo.
I know the footwork is different but could Kendo
help the Aikidoka in speed of response, focus etc?
Can anyone speak from experience?
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Old 06-04-2017, 08:15 AM   #2
asiawide
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Re: Kendo as training aid?

No... but japanese koryu kenjutsu like Katori Shinto Ryu may be beneficial for aikido.
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Old 06-04-2017, 08:24 AM   #3
grondahl
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Re: Kendo as training aid?

Quote:
Jaemin Yu wrote: View Post
No... but japanese koryu kenjutsu like Katori Shinto Ryu may be beneficial for aikido.
What do you base this opinion on?
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Old 06-04-2017, 08:33 AM   #4
asiawide
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Re: Kendo as training aid?

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
What do you base this opinion on?
Kendo is no help? or Katori shinto ryu?

For Kendo, I've seen kendo guys learning aikido and it seems no help for making themselves better at aikido. They may hit or guard fast but that's all.

For KSR, many of my peers said it helps but they doesn't seem so. so 'maybe it can help'
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Old 06-04-2017, 07:31 PM   #5
rugwithlegs
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Re: Kendo as training aid?

The OP didn't mention technique development, he mentioned basic conditioning stuff. So why not? Same things could be achieved elsewhere, but sure.

But would Kendo bring more to the table; my experience is the footwork and technique is quite different and there is no sense of cutting through. Also, sword work seems to never be ambidextrous. This is true I guess for aikiken too? I don't know that unilateral practice would condition the body properly for bilateral application later. I've known a couple of senior black belts to do both Kendo and aikido, but they did keep the two very separate. It's not a shortcut.
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Old 06-04-2017, 08:19 PM   #6
Ellis Amdur
 
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Re: Kendo as training aid?

An interesting thing to consider - kendo used to be taught at the Kobukan by Ueshiba's former son-in-law, Nakakura Kiyoshi. Shioda told a story of Nakakura having a slump and Ueshiba suggesting he use a one-handed tsuki (a technique that Takeda Sokaku was known for), and he began winning again.

It would be worthwhile to consider the aikido of Sugawara Tetsutaka as he also teaches TSKSR as does, I believe a senior student of Kobayashi Yasuo. Mochizuki Minoru and many aikidoka of the Sugino Dojo also do TSKSR.

Other famous teachers were influenced, directly or indirectly by other ryu:
[
Tomiki Kenji and Hikizuchi Morio - an adaption of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu through Ueshiba Morihei's taking a few elements from his student, Gejo Kisaburo.

Saito Morihiro - an adaption of Kashima Shinto-ryu through Ueshiba Morihei's taking a few elements from observation of his son and another deshi's study of its kenjutsu

Yamaguchi Seigo, from Inaba Minoru from his adaptation of elements of Kashima Shin-ryu

Nishio Shoji - an admixture of elements he derived from Shinto Muso-ryu jo and Nihon Zendoku Iaido

Ono-ha Itto-ryu is the basis of Takeda Sokaku's art, and elements of this ryu infuse Daito-ryu and also, thereby aikido.

Takaoka Sadao - Takenouchi-ryu

Chiba Kazuo - either Muso Shinden-ryu

Just those who come immediately to mind.

Ellis Amdur

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Old 06-05-2017, 05:59 AM   #7
sorokod
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Re: Kendo as training aid?

Quote:
Peter Byl wrote: View Post
Could learning Kendo help one's Aikido?
If there is any martial art where you can launch
a very fast attack with no holding back and without
fear of injury then it would have to be Kendo.
I know the footwork is different but could Kendo
help the Aikidoka in speed of response, focus etc?
Can anyone speak from experience?
Did you know that Aikido has an integrated weapons system developed by the founder and distilled by Saito Morihiro sensei?

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Old 06-05-2017, 06:20 AM   #8
Ecosamurai
 
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Re: Kendo as training aid?

I've got 20 years of aikido, I also had a few years of kendo in there about ten years ago. That and a smattering of iaido.

I found kendo footwork creeping into my aikido, not the emphasis on keeping feet parallel (I was constantly brought up on that in kendo because my aikido hanmi kept overriding it), but rather the need in kendo to keep the feet close together, I'm thinking particularly of the end part of the first kata, you can see it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-75N3w9hyjM at about 53 seconds in where shidachi moves forward from right to left on the screen, and draws the rear foot after her.

In aikido before I did kendo I often found myself leaving the rear foot behind. This leads to this sort of thing. Apologies for taking an image out of context but it was the first one I could find on google, I may be doing them an injustice. That said, take a look at images of the founder after WW2 and you will be hard pressed to find many where his legs are similarly placed, I can find almost none where he's like that and his upper body is simultaneously inclined forward.

My habit of drawing in the rear foot that I picked up in that one kendo kata made a big contribution to my training using the internal aspects of aikido. Feet below hips, hips below shoulders as is needed for using the internal skills everyone talks about.

There are of course exceptions to all rules and the above is more a reflection on a single example of what kendo did for me. Kendo is also, it should be remembered a martial sport, so good for fitness, conditioning etc but have a care to be critical over what you're conditioning yourself to become. If you spend thousands of hours trying to beat someone else with a stick, that's what you'll get good at and that's what you'll take out of the dojo with you. Sometimes that's just not useful in practising aikido kata because you'll bring a fight where you really don't want it.

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 06-05-2017, 07:13 AM   #9
grondahl
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Re: Kendo as training aid?

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Did you know that Aikido has an integrated weapons system developed by the founder and distilled by Saito Morihiro sensei?
But the notion of very fast attack and Iwama-style bukiwaza are not two concepts that go together.
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Old 06-05-2017, 08:36 AM   #10
lbb
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Re: Kendo as training aid?

Not a kendoka myself, but -- while I find the quickness of kendoka impressive -- I have to think that if the goal is to develop quickness, there's probably a more direct way to do it that doesn't involve buying a lot of expensive equipment?
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Old 06-05-2017, 09:17 AM   #11
PeterR
 
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Re: Kendo as training aid?

That has nothing to do with the expense of the equipment but the training drills which need nothing more that a shinai or bokken. The rapid movement training has its parallels in certain styles of aikido done either with bokken or empty handed (tsukuri renshu).

Trained kendoka are a joy to introduce to aikido - excellent posture and control of center, not to mention a level of fitness. However, I don't think kendo training per se will improve your aikido, perhaps adopting a few of the drills as part of your practice if you already don't do a variant.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-05-2017, 03:14 PM   #12
sorokod
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Re: Kendo as training aid?

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
But the notion of very fast attack and Iwama-style bukiwaza are not two concepts that go together.
If you can go fast withheavy bokken , no protection and without loosing the form then do it. Of course you will need a willing partner.

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Old 06-05-2017, 07:41 PM   #13
Petrus
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Re: Kendo as training aid?

Thank you for all your replies.
Perhaps I didn't phrase my question properly.
We all know the principle of "getting out of the line of attack" in Aikido.
I know very little of Kendo but I would imagine the same applies.
If someone attempts a men strike at great speed then surely you would be forced
to get out the way very quickly before applying whatever technique.
In Kendo you try very hard to strike the opponent without fear of causing injury whereas if you try that in Aikido you'll end up with concussion being a common injury. Of course in Kendo there's learning through competition and in Aikido there's learning through cooperation( unless you are doing randori with several people attacking you at once).

I know that very advanced Aikidoka would be highly skilled at getting out of the way
at great speed after many years of training. I'm just wondering if Kendo would help you learn that one aspect of Aikido a lot quicker simply because it's safer in Kendo to attack with great speed?
Again thanks for the advice.
Cheers
Peter
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Old 06-06-2017, 07:45 AM   #14
phitruong
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Re: Kendo as training aid?

Quote:
Peter Byl wrote: View Post
We all know the principle of "getting out of the line of attack" in Aikido.

Peter
holy crap! i did not know that principle after practicing aikido all these years. i only know the principle of "entering and making the other bugger moving off my line". i blamed that on my teachers who made me stay on the log bridge and made the other buggers stepping off.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 06-06-2017, 03:27 PM   #15
ninjedi
 
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Re: Kendo as training aid?

You'd be better served to learn iaido, especially if you are a serious Aikido student. Either way, it's best to consult with your teacher.
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Old 06-10-2017, 06:04 PM   #16
bothhandsclapping
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Re: Kendo as training aid?

A slightly different take ...
About twenty years ago, while still studying Aikido, I studied a northern style of Kung Fu for about a year. The net of it was that I appreciated Aikido that much more. It may be worth it for that alone.

As a data point, we did have a long time kendo student come into one of our jo classes and it seemed pretty hard for him to break that giddy-up shuffling step that they like to do.

Jim Redel BHC Aikido
"The universe, aikido, the mind - both hands clapping!"
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