Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-08-2017, 03:27 PM   #1
Peter Boylan
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 286
United_States
Offline
Aikido and Stress

How are Aikido and stress connected? Like any physical activity, Aikido practice can help relieve stress, but are there any other ways Aikido and stress are connected? Could it help you handle situations so they aren't stressful to begin with? I argue that good budo training does this in this blog post http://budobum.blogspot.com/2017/05/...nd-stress.html

What do you think? Does your aikido help you to handle stress better?

Peter Boylan
Mugendo Budogu LLC
Budo Books, Videos, Equipment from Japan
http://www.budogu.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2017, 04:07 PM   #2
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 779
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikido and Stress

Quote:
Peter Boylan wrote: View Post
How are Aikido and stress connected? Like any physical activity, Aikido practice can help relieve stress, but are there any other ways Aikido and stress are connected? Could it help you handle situations so they aren't stressful to begin with? I argue that good budo training does this in this blog post http://budobum.blogspot.com/2017/05/...nd-stress.html

What do you think? Does your aikido help you to handle stress better?
Not dishonest when here Aikido is mentioned four times including the title but in the actual linked article, zero times including the title?

Clickbait:

Quote:
/ˈklɪkbeɪt/
nouninformal
noun: clickbait; noun: click bait
(on the Internet) content whose main purpose is to attract attention and encourage visitors to click on a link to a particular web page.

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2017, 07:08 AM   #3
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,137
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Stress

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Not dishonest when here Aikido is mentioned four times including the title but in the actual linked article, zero times including the title?
I'm not gonna go there with "dishonest", but I think there's a missed opportunity given the choice of topic. We can talk all we want about how "budo" is all the same in the end, but I believe that there are things specific to aikido that can help with "stress", that poorly-defined thing that everyone tries to escape. No doubt there are other martial arts forms that also have these things, but all budo? No, I don't think so. So, yeah, I think this post represents a missed opportunity more than anything else. OTOH, I'm also a believer that, as Rita Mae Brown once said, "If you don't like my book, write your own."
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2017, 07:45 AM   #4
Peter Boylan
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 286
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Stress

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Not dishonest when here Aikido is mentioned four times including the title but in the actual linked article, zero times including the title?

Clickbait:
I'm sorry you feel that way. I was hoping to engender conversation about Aikido and stress. The particular article is written in a general manner to apply to all forms of budo across the board, which certainly includes aikido. The particular question was phrased and presented so that people could discuss aikido and stress without reading the article. In addition, if you feel that aikido is not a form of budo, I'd love to have that discussion as well.

Peter Boylan
Mugendo Budogu LLC
Budo Books, Videos, Equipment from Japan
http://www.budogu.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2017, 07:51 AM   #5
Peter Boylan
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 286
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Stress

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
We can talk all we want about how "budo" is all the same in the end, but I believe that there are things specific to aikido that can help with "stress", that poorly-defined thing that everyone tries to escape. No doubt there are other martial arts forms that also have these things, but all budo? No, I don't think so. "
Mary, that's an interesting perspective. What things do you see as being unique to aikido that you don't find in other forms of budo?

Peter Boylan
Mugendo Budogu LLC
Budo Books, Videos, Equipment from Japan
http://www.budogu.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2017, 08:57 AM   #6
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,137
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Stress

Quote:
Peter Boylan wrote: View Post
Mary, that's an interesting perspective. What things do you see as being unique to aikido that you don't find in other forms of budo?
I did not say "unique".

Stress is often a function of having, or believing that you have, few choices (and none of them good). Aikido trains you, indirectly, to see other options, or the possibility for them. It is a way of thinking practiced on the mat in a specific context, but I believe that aikido training can exercise the brain in a way that allows you to see more options off the mat.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2017, 09:24 AM   #7
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 779
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikido and Stress

Quote:
Peter Boylan wrote: View Post
I'm sorry you feel that way. I was hoping to engender conversation about Aikido and stress. The particular article is written in a general manner to apply to all forms of budo across the board, which certainly includes aikido. The particular question was phrased and presented so that people could discuss aikido and stress without reading the article. In addition, if you feel that aikido is not a form of budo, I'd love to have that discussion as well.
Same deal here: "Do you practice Aikido on a blank canvas..." http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25158 . My feeling is that you posts here are of a commercial nature and are a gateway for advert clicking on your blogspot site.

From the discussion of your post "Aikido Is An Anachronism ..." http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24519 (yes, links to your blog - no, no mention of aikido) my impression is that you don't know enough about Aikido to engage in serious dialog.

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2017, 09:32 AM   #8
Peter Boylan
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 286
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Stress

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
. My feeling is that you posts here are of a commercial nature and are a gateway for advert clicking on your blogspot site.

From the discussion of your post "Aikido Is An Anachronism ..." http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24519 (yes, links to your blog - no, no mention of aikido) my impression is that you don't know enough about Aikido to engage in serious dialog.
I'm sorry to have given that impression. I won't say I make no money on my blog site, but the $25 a year or so that I get from it is not the motivation for doing it. The motivation is an abiding interest in all forms of budo, including aikido. I post here because, frankly, I get better discussions here than pretty much anywhere outside of Facebook. E-Budo as a discussion forum has atrophied terribly.

As for aikido, I find it amazing that this is nearly 20 years old, but hopefully my efforts to stay somewhat current have succeeded. http://www.aikiweb.com/spiritual/boylan2.html

Peter Boylan
Mugendo Budogu LLC
Budo Books, Videos, Equipment from Japan
http://www.budogu.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2017, 11:40 AM   #9
Hilary
Dojo: Torrey Pines Aiki Kai
Location: San Diego
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 98
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Stress

Quote:
Peter Boylan wrote: View Post
the $25 a year or so that I get
A profiteering robber baron in the making, stone him!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2017, 03:25 PM   #10
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Location: Florida Gulf coast
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,872
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Stress

Quote:
Peter Boylan wrote: View Post
Does your aikido help you to handle stress better?
Perhaps we need to stay mindful that stress is a subjective generic cognitive process.
We can make anything stressful.
Perhaps an activity (like Aikido) distracts the mind and temporary relieves/manages/handles the stress.
Perhaps we need to address how we create it in the first place.
If we don't create it, we don't have to handle it.
Until again,
Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2017, 09:00 AM   #11
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,137
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Stress

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Perhaps we need to stay mindful that stress is a subjective generic cognitive process.
We can make anything stressful.
Perhaps an activity (like Aikido) distracts the mind and temporary relieves/manages/handles the stress.
Perhaps we need to address how we create it in the first place.
If we don't create it, we don't have to handle it.
As Monty Python reminds us, "universal affirmatives can only be partially converted: all wood floats, but all that floats is not wood." Thus, while it is possible for people to "make anything stressful", it is not true that all stress that happens to people is of their own manufacture. For those who disagree, there are any number of conditions that people endure that are not of their creation and that create very real stress, and I'd invite you to try some of them for yourself, only, gosh, they're not something you decide to have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2017, 02:57 PM   #12
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,326
Offline
Re: Aikido and Stress

Oh jeez, Peter was an integral part of aikido-L community before there was an aikiweb. He's cheerfully gotten on many a mat with us at cross-training seminars and even purely aikido events. Trust me, click-bait he ain't.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2017, 07:02 PM   #13
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,180
Japan
Offline
Re: Aikido and Stress

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Oh jeez, Peter was an integral part of aikido-L community before there was an aikiweb. He's cheerfully gotten on many a mat with us at cross-training seminars and even purely aikido events. Trust me, click-bait he ain't.
Like Janet, I have a gold star after my name, which means that I send Jun Akiyama some funds each year, to keep AikiWeb going. I have been doing it for so long that I have forgotten the amount, so it is not particularly painful. I am also a part owner of E-Budo and a group of us decided that on balance it was better to keep it going than to abandon it. Again, it is not so much. So, I really do not think the $25 that Peter B receives is too much of a problem. Since he also practices other arts, besides aikido, I think that straying from the main theme also adds some breadth to the content.

As for stress in aikido, I have a few opinions about this, for I think the potential stress operates on several levels and it is partly a consequence of the lack of overt competition. The main Japanese word for this is shiai, but there is another word, kyouso [競争], which also means competition and I think this is just as evident in aikido as in any other budo.

The first time I encountered the art, it seemed something very beautiful to watch and I wanted to be able to do it just like my teacher was doing. He was Japanese and I eventually met K Chiba. His aikido was also remarkable to watch—and also receive ukemi from. There was a close matching between form and content that was also aesthetically pleasing. This takes a long time to develop and involves different difficulties for different individuals. You can see the difference, for example, between a physically gifted individual, who can move very well, and an expert—who is perhaps not so physically gifted, but who has learned to match form and content in his or her own case to a very high level.

However, I was rather shocked at the levels of stress to which K Chiba subjected his own students and I once had occasion to confront him about this. We often talked privately and I received some of his own confidences about the levels of stress that he, also, had received when he was a deshi at the Aikikai Hombu. Chiba subjected his own students to very severe training, but I was sometimes concerned whether they were able to cope with it.

For some years I trained at a local dojo in the UK and also saw the psychological stress to which some students were subjected. One of a small group who trained virtually every time it was possible to train, they were given a model by the Japanese shihan and were expected to reproduce it as fully as possible. There were full length mirrors in the dojo and our physical movements were often subjected to very intense scrutiny. Some students could cope with this stress better than others and one or two became quite ill. Basically, they wanted to be the best students in the dojo and could not understand why they never seemed to achieve this goal, at least to the shihan’s satisfaction.

One other important point is that the instructor has to run the dojo in such a way that the students can find a release from stress if necessary, and so it is a good place to train. But the instructor is not immune from stress and this can also be a burden. The reason why I argued with K Chiba was that I good reason to believe that he occasionally took out his own stress on his students.

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 07:50 AM   #14
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,137
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Stress

I don't think the original post had anything to do with stress in aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 08:12 AM   #15
Cass
 
Cass's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Academy
Location: Athens
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 61
Greece
Offline
Re: Aikido and Stress

Another AikiWeb thread with some passive-aggressiveness for no reason it seems? It's a good line of thought and a discussion worth having, try to keep on point.

Anyway I thought the blog articulated the point rather well, aikido has helped me deal with stress in many of the ways mentioned. In fact, often during the week the prospect of training after work is that only thing that I am focusing myself on so that there is a silver lining to every day. Going for a good training particularly stressed is bliss, like a massaged muscle after a cramp, you breathe, let go, release, focus and go for it as hard as you can, you're rewarded with the beautiful rush afterward, you successfully vent your annoyance. I am almost always in a vastly better mood after training than when I go in. That said, entering stressed can sometimes damage your training if you are unable to focus yourself from the distractions that pick at your mind from the day. Those days where you can't stop being distracted and end up doing poor technique, or end up not exerting yourself enough can be more draining than anything, but fortunately I find those are pretty rare (especially for any seasoned aikidoka). Thank you for the topic, Peter .



Aikido Discord Live Chat: https://discord.gg/Vxdcmz6
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2017, 08:17 PM   #16
bothhandsclapping
Dojo: Both Hands Clapping
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 79
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Stress

How 'bout we throw a little science into the mix ...
1.) We all experience a plethora of what we might call primal stresses. Hunger, thirst, the desire for possessions, status and reputation, the desire for sex, the need for certainty, etc. These stresses are all sourced in unconscious 'Darwinian algorithms' designed to generate the behaviors that have been proven as giving us the best chance to get our genes (or the genes of close relatives) into the next generation. These stresses aren't going away. Period.

2.) We then experience a host of what we might call derivative stresses, where we then stress about the behaviors and conditions that these primal stresses inevitably bring about. And it seems reasonable that what we normally think of as stress are these category 2 stresses.

Where does Aikido (budo) fit in?

Physical exercise does seem to be one temporary solution. That is, if we are working out, we have no time to generate or perpetuate the category 2 stresses. And, it does seem that budo training can give us some leverage in taming one of the biggest primal stresses - the need for certainty. Knowing that you have survived worse ordeals can indeed often be of great comfort (stress reduction).

But it does beg the question - is there no other choice? Are we left to busting our asses so that we have no time to think about our problems or are we left to engaging in increasingly challenging ordeals so that every other 'normal' stress pales in comparison?

It seems that many sages (martial artists included) have walked this exact path before and found it insufficient.

Jim Redel BHC Aikido
"The universe, aikido, the mind - both hands clapping!"
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2017, 10:02 PM   #17
rugwithlegs
Dojo: Open Sky Aikikai
Location: Durham, NC
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 431
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Stress

Not unique, but more than other martial arts clubs in the vicinity - Aikido talks about self development and that a student will obtain an improved ability to handle stressful situations is at least strongly implied if not outright said. This is only a tiny fraction, IMO, of what the sixth rule for practice says Aikido should offer. I know of several schools who make a promise of better stress management, but I don't see how they are actually working towards this. 1000 kotegaeshi doesn't make someone a psychologist. Most junior instructors will talk about how Aikido improves our ability to handle stress, but they could never say how.

Pressuring students with the hopes that everything else in their lives will seem mild by comparison, Marine Corp Style - like with the military model, there has to be significant attrition expected especially for beginners. Military trainers at least have to answer for recruits who are too injured or too broken to go on to perform their duties but there is no such demand in a dojo. No one is becoming a retainer. The sensei is the highest level of authority, and the students give them their authority. Out of the teachers I have known to demand this, most were people who hadn't earned that level of loyalty. A few who had earned that level of respect from me refused to let me be so impressionable.

Does meditation help with managing stress? Yes, but few schools I have been to had actual training in specific meditation techniques as part of the curriculum. Often, there seems to be a brief moment a class of students being seen-and-not-heard passing as development.

There is some pain, some falling and fear, some interaction. There is some physical exercise that aids in stress release. Better structure leads to less physical stress on my body when I go to work. There is a desire some days to not even show up that I push through and usually feel better for it. Sometimes class is a pressure release valve.

Is any of that unique to only Aikido? No.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2017, 12:11 AM   #18
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: New Zealand
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 957
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikido and Stress

Quote:
Cassia Rose Heatley wrote: View Post
Anyway I thought the blog articulated the point rather well, aikido has helped me deal with stress in many of the ways mentioned. In fact, often during the week the prospect of training after work is that only thing that I am focusing myself on so that there is a silver lining to every day.
Probably wandering off topic ... but I have always preferred early morning training, but not too vigorous - have to go to work after all. And right now, there are no dojos near me that train in the morning, so I go through stuff by myself : to an onlooker they might think I'm doing Taichi. Anyway, if I do light aiki-taiso and go thru a few waza ... to me it is like my daily spiritual breakfast. I feel great ALL day.

Why wait all day to feel good

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2017, 01:21 PM   #19
bothhandsclapping
Dojo: Both Hands Clapping
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 79
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Stress

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Probably wandering off topic ... but I have always preferred early morning training, but not too vigorous - have to go to work after all. And right now, there are no dojos near me that train in the morning, so I go through stuff by myself : to an onlooker they might think I'm doing Taichi. Anyway, if I do light aiki-taiso and go thru a few waza ... to me it is like my daily spiritual breakfast. I feel great ALL day.

Why wait all day to feel good
Hi Rupert, I believe your post is quite relevant. I may be wrong, but from reading your post, a reasonable person would conclude that the quality of your day would be lessened if you didn't do your morning routine. So, as a thought experiment, what would your life be if you could never ever again have your spiritual breakfast, no matter how much you wanted it?

This is what the sages through the years had realized was lacking in this kind of path - one where you are always free to do the things that you want to do and when you want to do them. This path is not fixed, can never be fixed. There will inevitably be a day when you cannot do the things you want to do, when you want to do them. What then?

And one of these sages might say something like: "When doing your morning thing and and not doing your morning thing are the same ... there is nothing you lack."

Jim Redel BHC Aikido
"The universe, aikido, the mind - both hands clapping!"
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2017, 01:32 PM   #20
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: New Zealand
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 957
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikido and Stress

Quote:
Jim Redel wrote: View Post
And one of these sages might say something like: "When doing your morning thing and and not doing your morning thing are the same ... there is nothing you lack."
The sage in me says, "Keep doing your morning thing."

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2017, 03:21 PM   #21
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,299
Offline
Re: Aikido and Stress

The only thing stress relieving about Aikido is a a good physical workout and opportunity to focus mentally on doing one thing. I get these by lifting weights, mowing the lawn. going for long walks and recently doing Bathaks (Hindu squats) and Dands (Hindu push ups).

dps
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2017, 04:21 PM   #22
nikyu62
Dojo: Aikido Club of American Samoa
Location: American Samoa
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 122
American Samoa
Offline
Re: Aikido and Stress

All wood does not float; doing one's "morning thing" is a biological imperative. Aikido may relieve stress for some, and cause stress for others.....I have experienced both at various times. It is ok for people to have differing viewpoints, as long as you agree with me......(just kidding, but some people are not.)
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2017, 04:56 PM   #23
bothhandsclapping
Dojo: Both Hands Clapping
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 79
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Stress

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
The sage in me says, "Keep doing your morning thing."

Jim Redel BHC Aikido
"The universe, aikido, the mind - both hands clapping!"
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2017, 05:02 PM   #24
bothhandsclapping
Dojo: Both Hands Clapping
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 79
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Stress

Quote:
Steven Shimanek wrote: View Post
All wood does not float; doing one's "morning thing" is a biological imperative. Aikido may relieve stress for some, and cause stress for others.....I have experienced both at various times. It is ok for people to have differing viewpoints, as long as you agree with me......(just kidding, but some people are not.)

Jim Redel BHC Aikido
"The universe, aikido, the mind - both hands clapping!"
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2017, 09:37 PM   #25
Currawong
Dojo: Shoheijuku Aikido, Fukuoka
Location: Fukuoka
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 105
Japan
Offline
Re: Aikido and Stress

I see a lot of mention of Aikido as a means of relieving stress, but how about as a means to learn to deal with stress?

One of the things I appreciate from having practiced Aikido is that it puts me under situations which have triggered fears within me, including personality flaws, and through practice I've learned to overcome them.

This also relates to the other side of the situation where I've seen people become senior enough that they don't have to confront their character flaws and instead end up abusing their students or juniors in various ways.

I've come to appreciate each time I screw up a technique somehow, as it gives me a chance to examine myself and find what part of me, often my own thinking, is causing me to move in an bad way. For example, we have all found ourselves forcing techniques, even slightly when we know we shouldn't. I've found often this might be with a particular partner, maybe someone very senior, with whom I'm not confident about being able to do the technique well. By examining both my mental/emotional state as well as the technique, I can learn to deal with similar reactions in situations outside of Aikido and improve my interactions with others overall.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What Keganin No Senshi Aikido Is Thomas Osborn External Aikido Blog Posts 1 04-24-2014 02:39 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 24 Peter Goldsbury Columns 6 07-07-2013 05:40 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 23 Peter Goldsbury Columns 6 05-18-2013 06:52 AM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 18 Peter Goldsbury Columns 187 09-08-2011 02:41 PM
Aikido in Amsterdam, Terry Lax style... tiyler_durden General 11 11-03-2008 08:31 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:45 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2017 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2017 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate