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Old 04-29-2017, 07:34 PM   #1
akiy
 
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YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down



Here's an Aikido video clip of Jenny Flower (6th dan, Aikido of Athens) teaching an "iriminage dropdown" at Brooklyn Aikikai in December, 2014.

From her website: Jenny Flower is chief instructor of Athens Aikido. She began her training in Norwich, England in 1989 before moving to San Diego two years later to train under T. K. Chiba Shihan for three years in the Kenshusei program living for one year as Uchideshi at San Diego Aikikai. During this time she was also fortunate to train extensively under M. Murashige Shihan who she considers to be an important teacher for her. In 1997 she moved to Greece and founded and ran Athens Aikikai for nearly ten years before establishing Athens Aikido in 2008. She currently holds the rank of 6th degree black belt and is a Birankai International certified instructor (Shidoin). She is Chairman of the Hellenic Birankai Teaching Committee.

What are your thoughts on this video?

-- Jun

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Old 04-30-2017, 01:27 AM   #2
asiawide
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Re: YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down

Sitting down on floor is best and easiest way to use the weight of body. But it's quite 'ouch' if it's done out of mats. We need to learn how to drop weight down without drop body down.
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Old 04-30-2017, 11:28 AM   #3
rugwithlegs
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Re: YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down

Flowers sensei does the movement well.

I have done this before with Peter Bernath. I've come to think of it as a type of henkawaza - nage is doing an ushiro ate and uke knocks nage off balance. It is important that we be able to cleanly transition between our tachiwaza and suwariwaza, and this is a valid practice. Not a favorite after some knee issues.

If I was dropping to throw, these days I would rather time it to use uke as a cushion for my knees. In Eli Yoshikawa's Musashi, he describes someone being thrown like this and the skull shattering on a rock on the ground. That's maybe closer to the real application.

I tend to not emphasize this pin. I use two hands to control one of uke's limbs. I cannot disengage from uke without first breaking the arm or choking uke or damaging the neck in some way. Many of our face up pins seem to be about getting in a kill shot rather than a control? But very classical.

In FB land someone said it depended on uke holding on - I have seen this done with nage holding the elbow or holding in a gyaku kotegaeshi grip or a version of sankyo. The shoulder gets damaged if nage doesn't let go.

It is a very clean, solid, smooth demo. I had a friend in Greece last year, I'll have to ask if he trained with her.
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Old 04-30-2017, 12:25 PM   #4
PeteDiscenza
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Re: YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down

This resembles the 'kesa (scarf version)' of iriminage. As uke I'd have some issues with the ukemi, which several times involved first mat contact with the shoulder. This would be pretty dangerous for those of us with previous injuries or us old folks with some wear & tear. 'On the street' this might end an encounter but I'd like to continue practicing w/o rehab in the dojo.
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Old 04-30-2017, 02:41 PM   #5
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Re: YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down

From my point of view, this presentation and thousands of others on youtube indicate a lack of understanding of what aikido is about. It is clear that the effectiveness of aikido as a martial art has been lost forever. It was replaced by preparation for a spectacular show. I really don't mind. Unfortunately what is really wrong that everywhere aikido today is presented as a modern martial art. It creates an illusion that aikido is a proper tool for self-defense. It is not. By the way, talking about my point of view, I presented a while ago, nobody even started a serious discussion. I am ready to defend any sentence in that post. I think is time and important to talk about aikido we already lost.
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Old 04-30-2017, 07:26 PM   #6
Riai Maori
 
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Re: YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down

Quote:
Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
From my point of view, this presentation and thousands of others on youtube indicate a lack of understanding of what aikido is about. It is clear that the effectiveness of aikido as a martial art has been lost forever. It was replaced by preparation for a spectacular show. I really don't mind. Unfortunately what is really wrong that everywhere aikido today is presented as a modern martial art. It creates an illusion that aikido is a proper tool for self-defense. It is not. By the way, talking about my point of view, I presented a while ago, nobody even started a serious discussion. I am ready to defend any sentence in that post. I think is time and important to talk about aikido we already lost.
I agree with your above comment and applaud you being so brave in your other thread. Aikido is not self defense, but just a tool that you may find helpful in an unfortunate situation. I am proficient in other forms of unarmed combat that complements my current Aikido.

Motto tsuyoku
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Old 05-01-2017, 07:37 AM   #7
phitruong
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Re: YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down

always curious about the whole idea of dropping uke down, then haul them up again to throw. seem like a lot of work. i thought aikido is the lazy man martial arts. did i get the bill of goods here? i tell ya, you just can't trust people in skirts.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 05-01-2017, 08:18 AM   #8
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Re: YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
always curious about the whole idea of dropping uke down, then haul them up again to throw. seem like a lot of work. i thought aikido is the lazy man martial arts. did i get the bill of goods here? i tell ya, you just can't trust people in skirts.
Not hauling up. Letting them get up. There's a difference.
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Old 05-01-2017, 10:13 AM   #9
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Re: YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
always curious about the whole idea of dropping uke down, then haul them up again to throw. seem like a lot of work.
Throw 'em hard enough that the skull bounces off the floor, then go with the energy. Not every uke likes to practice that way - at least not for more than a couple of throws.
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Old 05-01-2017, 10:38 AM   #10
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Re: YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Not hauling up. Letting them get up.
Why?

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Old 05-01-2017, 11:13 AM   #11
phitruong
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Re: YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
Why?
you jumped the line and asked before i got the chance. ya, i was wondering about why would i want to get up. i have a mental video of me doing that to a bjj guy/gal/it and as he/she/it drop then spun in ward, then proceed to wrap me up like a christmas turkey, 30 ways to monday and twice on sunday. and i like christmas turkey, but i wouldn't want to do that to myself. although, i like stuffing more than the turkey though. damn! i get hungry talking about aikido!

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 05-01-2017, 12:23 PM   #12
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Re: YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down

the goal of uke is to stay connected and commited to the attach throught the whole movement

you notice uke's hand is still attached to nage even after the shomenuchi strike

uke is not dead after the initial strike.

practice hard
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Old 05-01-2017, 08:39 PM   #13
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Re: YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Why?
I tend to regard this movement as a henkawaza. The initial cutdown can certainly finish the fight, but sometimes not.

I remember a dojo I was at for a year that insisted they didn't feel the need to get up. The one guy "proved his point" by going to the ground in a semifetal position and leaving his face a perfect target for my knees and feet. He was trying to "show a more realistic response." I wasn't convinced.
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Old 05-01-2017, 11:36 PM   #14
Riai Maori
 
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Re: YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down

Once Uke has been taken to ground, the world is your oyster. And I love oysters.

Motto tsuyoku
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Old 05-02-2017, 04:34 AM   #15
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Re: YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
I tend to regard this movement as a henkawaza. The initial cutdown can certainly finish the fight, but sometimes not.
Outside of you personal opinion, is it being taught as a henka? If a henka is needed after the first take down why not after the second?

If we go down the "sometimes not" path, will not atemi be a more reasonable solution?

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Old 05-02-2017, 05:43 AM   #16
Walter Martindale
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Re: YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down

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Richard Campbell wrote: View Post
Once Uke has been taken to ground, the world is your oyster. And I love oysters.
Especially oysters from Bluff...
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Old 05-02-2017, 06:06 AM   #17
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Re: YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Outside of you personal opinion, is it being taught as a henka? If a henka is needed after the first take down why not after the second?

If we go down the "sometimes not" path, will not atemi be a more reasonable solution?
It is how I've had to regard any technique with more than one movement. Tsuki uchi kaitenage contains about 30 some separate finishing options. If I do it in randori, I never finish the entire technique.

While we call it iriminage, other Aikido styles would indeed call it aigamaeate, the second atemi waza.
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Old 05-02-2017, 06:24 AM   #18
phitruong
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Re: YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down

Quote:
Jerome Cervantes wrote: View Post
the goal of uke is to stay connected and commited to the attach throught the whole movement
why would that be the goal of uke? what possible reason that uke wants to stay connected or even committed to the attach after the attack delivered? although, i have encountered a few aikido folks who should be committed, on second thought, maybe even third thought i think i should be committed.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 05-02-2017, 06:27 AM   #19
phitruong
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Re: YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down

Quote:
Richard Campbell wrote: View Post
Once Uke has been taken to ground, the world is your oyster. And I love oysters.
unless uke versed in BJJ, then the world is his/her/it shrimp or possibly crayfish or squid. i like those deep fried baby octopus.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 05-02-2017, 07:26 AM   #20
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Re: YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
Why?
Why what? Why would they want to get up, or why would you let them up? They'd want to get up because otherwise they're lying face down in front of you and it's only the goodness of your heart that saves their kidneys a kicking. You'd want to let them up, perhaps, if you didn't actually have them in a pin, if they were big and strong and had at least one knee under them, and you didn't want to get into a wrestling match trying to keep them down.

In terms of practice, you should not be "hauling them up". Simple as that.
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Old 05-02-2017, 07:57 AM   #21
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Re: YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Why what? Why would they want to get up, or why would you let them up? They'd want to get up because otherwise they're lying face down in front of you and it's only the goodness of your heart that saves their kidneys a kicking. You'd want to let them up, perhaps, if you didn't actually have them in a pin, if they were big and strong and had at least one knee under them, and you didn't want to get into a wrestling match trying to keep them down.

In terms of practice, you should not be "hauling them up". Simple as that.
Perhaps I am over rationalizing, but seems to me you have a contradiction, paraphrasing your answer:
  1. They get up because it is advantageous for them to do so
  2. You let them get up because it is advantageous for you to do so.

In addition
Quote:
you didn't want to get into a wrestling match trying to keep them down
wouldn't atemi (kidney, neck, temple ...) be a sensible thing to do in this case?

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Old 05-02-2017, 09:10 AM   #22
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Re: YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
Perhaps I am over rationalizing, but seems to me you have a contradiction, paraphrasing your answer:
  1. They get up because it is advantageous for them to do so
  2. You let them get up because it is advantageous for you to do so.

In addition wouldn't atemi (kidney, neck, temple ...) be a sensible thing to do in this case?
I'd say you're overthinking this; I'm not sure what "over rationalizing" is. It seems simple enough:

1)they try to get up because they believe it is advantageous for them to do so, or at least, better than their current situation.
2)you let them get up because you think it's preferable to trying to force them down with brute strength, given that you do not have a pin.

Note the difference between what I said and what you said.
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Old 05-02-2017, 11:16 AM   #23
Hilary
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Re: YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
... third thought i think i should be committed.
I thought this was common knowledge.
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Old 05-02-2017, 04:34 PM   #24
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Re: YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I'd say you're overthinking this; I'm not sure what "over rationalizing" is. It seems simple enough:

1)they try to get up because they believe it is advantageous for them to do so, or at least, better than their current situation.
2)you let them get up because you think it's preferable to trying to force them down with brute strength, given that you do not have a pin.

Note the difference between what I said and what you said.
Well, you have "believe" vs "think" and "advantageous" vs "preferable" but beyond that, the scenario is rooted in a misunderstanding between tori and uke.

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Old 05-02-2017, 04:35 PM   #25
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Re: YouTube: Jenny Flower: Ai hamni iriminage drop down

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John Hillson wrote: View Post
While we call it iriminage, other Aikido styles would indeed call it aigamaeate, the second atemi waza.
Not a henka then?

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