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Old 03-20-2017, 10:35 PM   #201
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Cady - I have two video links attached to this post that I looked up only to get a representative sample of the outer forms of the arts you study. The first is Sam Chin demonstrating I Liq Chuan and the second is Seigo Okamoto demonstrating Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu.

It's pretty evident from the clips that the outer forms of both arts are decidedly different in appearance. Since both arts stress the generation of internal power, I'm wondering if they share common internal power training methods or are the training methods unique to the respective art?

Ron
Hi Ron,
While the outward expressions (the individual training exercises, the overt "shapes" and look, and the martial application) appear quite different, the actual mechanisms, principles and concepts are the same. That's where the creative artistry of expression comes in. If you were to see the exercises of I Liq Chuan training and the tanren (forging drills) of aikijujutsu, they might have some stylistic differences, but would actually be working the same processes to produce the same end products and results.

Think of the body method (aiki myoden, or "internal qualities") as the engine, and the martial-overt expression as the piece of machinery into which the engine is installed. The same engine can either fly a prop plane or drive a sports car.

Here is a clip of my aikijujutsu teacher, Salahuddin Muhammad. The same stickiness you see in Chin Sifu in his spinning demonstration, is being shown by Salahuddin Sensei in his sticky connectivity to his uke/teki.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NpoGWyKrtA&t=14s

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 03-20-2017 at 10:43 PM.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:30 PM   #202
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Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Cady - I have two video links attached to this post that I looked up only to get a representative sample of the outer forms of the arts you study. The first is Sam Chin demonstrating I Liq Chuan and the second is Seigo Okamoto demonstrating Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu.

It's pretty evident from the clips that the outer forms of both arts are decidedly different in appearance. Since both arts stress the generation of internal power, I'm wondering if they share common internal power training methods or are the training methods unique to the respective art?

Ron
You've gotten to the nub of it ron. A lot of the internal power authorities posting on forums like this are conflating arts that they have little to no knowledge of with their own systems and ideas. If people really want to get to grips with an art like daito ryu, they need to find an instructor within that lineage and train under them for a suitable period of time. It's not as sexy as attending seminars with internal power and chinese martial art teachers and then debating on the web, but there you go. Anyway, back to the usual conversation!
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:48 PM   #203
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Some of the individuals who discuss internals here (and, I haven't heard any who claimed to be "authorities"), have trained in more than one of the arts and have gone through enough of the internal-body-building methods in both -- and have enough skills in both -- to make a cogent comparison,
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Old 03-21-2017, 08:03 AM   #204
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
I check in periodically to see how the dialogue changes and it really hasn't since I've been watching this "debate" for more than 10 years - in that time I've been busy with training a lot of the areas that get discussed under the auspices of "internal strength". My perspective is that there's a set of common skills (and various flavors of information about them, depending on who you have access to) that get explored to various degrees regarding how to train the bodyskill of directing external forces (chiefly the naturally occurring ones of gravity and ground) and various conditioning methods to more effectively manage those forces in your body. In parallel (and this takes longer but is critical) is the bodywork to build the bones/muscles/tendon/tissue connections (to better propagate and issue the ground/gavity forces) which is different than just conditioning your body to respond to load.
Hi Budd,

You're right about the dialogue not changing, and not just on AikiWeb: http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.p...4dab3a54c8f6fc provides a thorough critique of Salahuddin Muhammad (formerly Edward J. Smith, alias Edward Burns, alias Tanemura Akahisa). I was amused to find myself agreeing with Dan Harden... >:-)

"Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose."

See you on the mat eventually!

Jim

I mistrust all systematizers and I avoid them. The will to a system is a lack of integrity. Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:23 AM   #205
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
You've gotten to the nub of it ron. A lot of the internal power authorities posting on forums like this are conflating arts that they have little to no knowledge of with their own systems and ideas.
Exactly - it could go both ways but it usually doesn't. I have a certain amount of sympathy for aikido people incorporating ideas outside of their own art to enhance what they are trying to achieve (if it helps go for it) but much less for the recurrent theme that this is what is good and true and all else is garbage. It is easy to pick holes in videos when that is the attitude and frankly IF I were to do the same I could be just as effective. We all see only what we want to.

Now that said - and more to the new Forum name (Internal training in Aikido) I will say that as I matured both in age and aikido I find what I work on and what I teach (to all levels) has changed. I will take more time with Shodokan exercises such as Shote awase or Hiriki no yosei ensuring the body positioning, intent and focus is understood and how those exercises translate into technique. Both those exercises (there are others) are key to developing aiki (forgive the almost pun) and although we never use the term IP there is a very distinct parallel. At the risk of the hyperbole I so despise your power of execution will go up exponentially.

Jim popping up un-expectantly reminded me of a visit to his place years ago and from that just how much things have changed. At that time aikido for me was all about timing and angles. I certainly taught differently when called upon - not sure if more effectively.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:05 AM   #206
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Hey Peter, good to see you here (you, too, Jimmy) . .

Yeah, I think the way people are training is more organically evolving towards paying more attention to the conditioning stuffs. But there's some pretty deep material that can be explored there based on well-outlined content that on one hand I'm surprised it isn't getting more traction based on its being "built in" to the naming of the system so-to-speak. But given some of the nature of how Japanese arts have been passed on and they're evolution from organized koryu, to still organized gendai and even sports (let alone some of the hybridization), I guess I'm not surprised that it hasn't caught on more. Both for the reason that some of the systems tend to be highly codified without a lot of room for exploration outside of the approved curriculum (in some cases) or in other cases so much is available to explore that it's difficult to build a parallel training plan to make sure other "skills and conditioning" are being addressed that aren't already baked into the technical materials (I think Tohei tried to address this in a way).

And there are also legitimate reasons why it's not of interest to pursue. Folks looking to "belong" to their group may not want to be outsiders if the material is beyond the scope of comfort. Others may legitimately see faster routes to being more effective by the metrics they measure such things.

When I do check in, I'm pretty interested in where the polarized approaches come from (It's GREAT vs. I don't NEED it vs. I'm ALREADY DOING it) and I've kinda determined that so many other things beyond the clinical analysis of what's going on get attached (belief systems, community, compulsions, self-esteem etc.) that it's almost better that it remain its own thing outside the so-called mainstream. The seekers can get access to more and more information as well as people training this stuff so they can make hopefully more informed determinations - as well as demystifying some of "this stuff" so that the information is decoupled from preconceived notions of superiority, ingroup/outgroup, yadda yadda . .
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:43 PM   #207
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Hi Budd,

You're right about the dialogue not changing, and not just on AikiWeb: http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.p...4dab3a54c8f6fc provides a thorough critique of Salahuddin Muhammad (formerly Edward J. Smith, alias Edward Burns, alias Tanemura Akahisa). I was amused to find myself agreeing with Dan Harden... >:-)

"Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose."

See you on the mat eventually!

Jim
Jim,
The "reviews" by him on Rumsoakedfist are false and uninformed. He has never met Salahuddin Muhammad, and has no first-hand information. I have trained with both.

Furthermore, the old posts about "Ed Smith," et al are also untrue and uninformed. It's easy to play armchair quarterback when you have no direct experience with someone. My suggestion is to actually meet and train with Salahuddin Muhammad, before you make any kind of public opinion. I did. His work is sound and genuine, he is a person of good character, and I would go to bat for his reputation anyday.
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Old 03-21-2017, 01:30 PM   #208
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Jim,
The "reviews" by him on Rumsoakedfist are false and uninformed. He has never met Salahuddin Muhammad, and has no first-hand information. I have trained with both.

Furthermore, the old posts about "Ed Smith," et al are also untrue and uninformed. It's easy to play armchair quarterback when you have no direct experience with someone. My suggestion is to actually meet and train with Salahuddin Muhammad, before you make any kind of public opinion. I did. His work is sound and genuine, he is a person of good character, and I would go to bat for his reputation anyday.
Cady,

My resources are limited, so I must weigh my study choices carefully. Having read all 23 pages of the RSF thread, I'll take your former teacher Dan's word over yours on this subject. From what I've heard, Dan knows a bit more than you about this stuff. >:-) Besides, there are several other skilled instructors, both inside and outside aikido, who offer an accessible, clean approach to aiki/IP, who are not carrying your current teacher's... baggage.

Jim

I mistrust all systematizers and I avoid them. The will to a system is a lack of integrity. Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols
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Old 03-21-2017, 01:35 PM   #209
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Jim popping up un-expectantly reminded me of a visit to his place years ago and from that just how much things have changed. At that time aikido for me was all about timing and angles. I certainly taught differently when called upon - not sure if more effectively.
Peter,

You taught a thoroughly enjoyable class! You're welcome in my dojo any time. It would be interesting to compare notes...

Best,

Jim

I mistrust all systematizers and I avoid them. The will to a system is a lack of integrity. Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols
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Old 03-21-2017, 01:46 PM   #210
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Yeah, I think the way people are training is more organically evolving towards paying more attention to the conditioning stuffs. But there's some pretty deep material that can be explored there based on well-outlined content that on one hand I'm surprised it isn't getting more traction based on its being "built in" to the naming of the system so-to-speak.
Hi Budd,

I agree, especially about "paying more attention to the conditioning stuffs." So far, I've found "the conditioning stuffs" to be the most accessible aspect of aiki/IP --- but that's just me. Others prefer a more codified ("kata-fied"?) approach. Not wrong, just different...

Jim

I mistrust all systematizers and I avoid them. The will to a system is a lack of integrity. Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols
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Old 03-21-2017, 03:03 PM   #211
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

One pays one's money and makes one's choices. Choosing misinformation, libel and petty gossip over firsthand experience is not something rational people endorse, but there ya go.

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Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Cady,

My resources are limited, so I must weigh my study choices carefully. Having read all 23 pages of the RSF thread, I'll take your former teacher Dan's word over yours on this subject. From what I've heard, Dan knows a bit more than you about this stuff. >:-) Besides, there are several other skilled instructors, both inside and outside aikido, who offer an accessible, clean approach to aiki/IP, who are not carrying your current teacher's... baggage.

Jim
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Old 03-21-2017, 03:59 PM   #212
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
While the outward expressions (the individual training exercises, the overt "shapes" and look, and the martial application) appear quite different, the actual mechanisms, principles and concepts are the same. That's where the creative artistry of expression comes in. If you were to see the exercises of I Liq Chuan training and the tanren (forging drills) of aikijujutsu, they might have some stylistic differences, but would actually be working the same processes to produce the same end products and results.
Thanks Cady. Would it then be fair to say that while there are different approaches to internal training, methods that produce equivalent end products and results are all converging on a single point despite their apparent differences?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Think of the body method (aiki myoden, or "internal qualities") as the engine, and the martial-overt expression as the piece of machinery into which the engine is installed. The same engine can either fly a prop plane or drive a sports car.
What you're referring to as 'the body method (aiki myoden, or "internal qualities")', I learned as the unification of mind and body. Specifically, the unification of intent and action within myself (centering). The unified mind/body then becomes the engine you referenced above.

Ron

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Old 03-21-2017, 08:20 PM   #213
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
One pays one's money and makes one's choices. Choosing misinformation, libel and petty gossip over firsthand experience is not something rational people endorse, but there ya go.
"Misinformation"? You haven't provided me (or those here, or in other forums) with any information that would lead me to accept your opinion over Dan's concerning either aiki/IP or your teacher's grasp of it.

"Libel"? I'm an attorney, licensed in Maryland. Has your current teacher successfully pursued his cause in court? If not, please describe it accurately: it's an opinion with which you disagree.

"Petty gossip"? Aside from the redundancy of that phrase, see the discussion immediately above, and review the meaning of "opinion".

"Not something rational people endorse"? Accepting the opinion of someone who knows more than you about this subject seems quite rational --- and it saves me the time and money that firsthand experience would cost.

Jim

I mistrust all systematizers and I avoid them. The will to a system is a lack of integrity. Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols
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Old 03-21-2017, 08:27 PM   #214
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Ron,
Yes, it's kind of like that old saying about different paths leading up the same mountain. However, while there are different approaches that purport to be heading to the same pinnacle, there are stratifications among them that make it difficult to make a broad-brush statement that they all lead to the same point. Some systems only work certain parts of these methods and do not have some that other systems have. Practitioners develop some skills, but may not have certain ones that are evident in other systems. Other arts or systems do have equivalent training methods for the same effects, and if you touched hands with experienced exponents of each you would feel and recognize these shared processes and recognize that they have the same engine - just a different outward expression of its powers. So, it's a mixed bag... which is the case in any discipline.

Awareness and intent drive all of these actions for us, as well. Unifying intent with action.
We train in Boston, and if you and Mary ever come to that neck of the woods, you are most welcome. It could be fun to compare notes.

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Thanks Cady. Would it then be fair to say that while there are different approaches to internal training, methods that produce equivalent end products and results are all converging on a single point despite their apparent differences?

What you're referring to as 'the body method (aiki myoden, or "internal qualities")', I learned as the unification of mind and body. Specifically, the unification of intent and action within myself (centering). The unified mind/body then becomes the engine you referenced above.

Ron
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Old 03-22-2017, 05:07 AM   #215
Bernd Lehnen
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
...... I will take more time with Shodokan exercises such as Shote awase or Hiriki no yosei ensuring the body positioning, intent and focus is understood and how those exercises translate into technique. Both those exercises (there are others) are key to developing aiki (forgive the almost pun) and although we never use the term IP there is a very distinct parallel. At the risk of the hyperbole I so despise your power of execution will go up exponentially.
........
Parallels don't meet anywhere near...

Joking apart though , not a bad thing to do.
I'm still amazed about the anatomically grounded rightfully essential and overt effectiveness when I look at old pictures of Tomiki doing Daito ryu aka his aikido. He must have had something in spades. Equally I still adore Yamada Senta for having represented exactly this with beauty and grace.

Best,
Bernd

Last edited by Bernd Lehnen : 03-22-2017 at 05:15 AM.
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Old 03-22-2017, 11:05 AM   #216
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

So here's some things that come to my mind:

Aikido has had 50 years to properly disseminate, consume, inherit, and pass on aiki training. What we consider mainstream aikido has done this poorly; academically speaking, the methodology of teaching is not defensible. We cannot produce aiki heavyweights using the methodology that has been in place. The people who have come out of aikido with some juice are doing so for other reasons than just aikido. Doing something that historically does not produce aiki and hoping for a different result is fantasy. Take any of these arguments outside of aikido, and the argument becomes ridiculous, right? Who would go to a college that only graduates .01% of its students? Worse, what about a college whose success rate is even lower unless the student is mentored by a single teacher? Unless what I am hearing from aikido is that the art is designed to withhold education from all but a select few, who would train this way?

When I started looking at internal power, it was because I felt I was not successfully learning under general "aikido" methodology. It turned out that internal power was an entire component of training that was glossed over, to be generous (and not done, to be accurate). But, the same can be said for aikido people to claim to use weapons. These are chunks of education that are not being treated fairly in aikido. While there may be individuals that are more successful with aiki, I am not sure I would claim aikido is successful with aiki. That is not say that individuals can't have success, or future instruction can't be altered to better teach aiki. A broken clock is right twice a day; so are we discussing a broken clock, or a clock that is right twice a day?

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Old 03-22-2017, 12:36 PM   #217
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

So we come full circle back to the beginning with virtually no change.
I think Budd sums it up perfectly

"And there are also legitimate reasons why it's not of interest to pursue. Folks looking to "belong" to their group may not want to be outsiders if the material is beyond the scope of comfort. Others may legitimately see faster routes to being more effective by the metrics they measure such things.

When I do check in, I'm pretty interested in where the polarized approaches come from (It's GREAT vs. I don't NEED it vs. I'm ALREADY DOING it) and I've kinda determined that so many other things beyond the clinical analysis of what's going on get attached (belief systems, community, compulsions, self-esteem etc.) that it's almost better that it remain its own thing outside the so-called mainstream. The seekers can get access to more and more information as well as people training this stuff so they can make hopefully more informed determinations - as well as demystifying some of "this stuff" so that the information is decoupled from preconceived notions of superiority, ingroup/outgroup, yadda yadda"

Especially the yadda yadda part. ;-)

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Old 03-22-2017, 12:59 PM   #218
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Hello Alec,

After hands on with Dan Harden I don't need more and more information but just to put in the work and time and the occasional reality check i.e. getting reminded by him how much I suck. We all usually have a lot of fun at his seminars and still learn something exceptional.

Best,
Bernd
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Old 03-22-2017, 03:36 PM   #219
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Bernd, not so speak for Dan, but at least he used to be among the biggest proponents to get your hands on multiple people to see what they're doing. I generally agree that you want to pick an approach to get time in and make progress against. The "tourists" or hoppers that go to the seminar of the week without really changing their fundamental approach to incorporate IS if there's gaps tend to make the least progress.

I do wish we could unwind the conversation of "do you do IS" or "is IS incorporated into your aikido" from the seemingly embedded conclusion that one's aikido is somehow "less" or not fulfilling for them. I can't reinforce enough that if you're enjoying your training and getting what you want out of it, then great. I just wish we could elevate the discussion from personalities and fabled traits to more "this is how it works within traditional definitions of "ki", "qi", "kokyu", "jin", etc. and align the buzzwords to demonstrable, explainable phenomena rather than storytelling, metaphysics and or mysticism.

Even the title of this thread is a bit troubling because unless it's a rhetorical eye-roll "air quote" question, then it's pretty blatantly absurd. Some baseline parameters are that NOTHING makes you invincible. Having more conditioning and skill tends to improve performance. There can be misalignment between IS approaches and an individual or group's aikido practice. There also doesn't have to be a conflict between exploring internal strength and maintaining a group association.

That said, I wish we could move the discussion further along for those in the aikido space that are currently working on these things - meaning how to align some of the breath, connection and intention work with more globally talked about things outside of any one martial art in the internal strength space.
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Old 03-22-2017, 04:36 PM   #220
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Bernd, not so speak for Dan, but at least he used to be among the biggest proponents to get your hands on multiple people to see what they're doing. I generally agree that you want to pick an approach to get time in and make progress against. The "tourists" or hoppers that go to the seminar of the week without really changing their fundamental approach to incorporate IS if there's gaps tend to make the least progress.

I do wish we could unwind the conversation of "do you do IS" or "is IS incorporated into your aikido" from the seemingly embedded conclusion that one's aikido is somehow "less" or not fulfilling for them. I can't reinforce enough that if you're enjoying your training and getting what you want out of it, then great. I just wish we could elevate the discussion from personalities and fabled traits to more "this is how it works within traditional definitions of "ki", "qi", "kokyu", "jin", etc. and align the buzzwords to demonstrable, explainable phenomena rather than storytelling, metaphysics and or mysticism.

Even the title of this thread is a bit troubling because unless it's a rhetorical eye-roll "air quote" question, then it's pretty blatantly absurd. Some baseline parameters are that NOTHING makes you invincible. Having more conditioning and skill tends to improve performance. There can be misalignment between IS approaches and an individual or group's aikido practice. There also doesn't have to be a conflict between exploring internal strength and maintaining a group association.

That said, I wish we could move the discussion further along for those in the aikido space that are currently working on these things - meaning how to align some of the breath, connection and intention work with more globally talked about things outside of any one martial art in the internal strength space.
Hi Budd,

Dan always says it's not about him or name dropping. But who could be more qualified to move the discussion further than he himself or any other genuine proponent in this realm? So I find it a real pity that he hasn't been allowed to take part in this forum for some time now.
I even can't see why this is so and don't know whether he would like to take part in this by now.
I myself can only impart my humble personal opinion and experience. Still, reading the posts of e.g. Jon Reading or Darren Sims and Chris Li's sangenkai blog might help considerably, though.

Best,
Bernd
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Old 03-22-2017, 11:12 PM   #221
RonRagusa
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Awareness and intent drive all of these actions for us, as well. Unifying intent with action.
Cady -

So it seems we have common ground when it comes to unifying intent and action as a training objective. In achieving that objective, I think we are coming at it from different directions.

From what I've read of your posts on the subject and what I learned from attending one of George Ledyard's workshops a few years back, you rely a lot on anatomical descriptions of how to attain solid, dependable internal structure (please feel free to call me on this if I've gotten it wrong).

To provide a brief overview, our process of developing the same dependable internal structure relies more on helping students recognize the feeling associated with having a dependable internal structure. Solo exercises (mainly the aiki taiso) and paired exercises, involving teaching the student to successfully deal with applied forces to various parts of their bodies both while stationary and in motion, are employed as a regular part of training to achieve this. Once a student knows what it feels like to perform with a coordinated mind and body it becomes a matter of slowly increasing the applied forces in order to reinforce and strengthen the feeling. The goal over time is to have the "correct feeling" of having mind/body coordination become the norm.

The integration of correct feeling with technique grows organically out of the practice.

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
We train in Boston, and if you and Mary ever come to that neck of the woods, you are most welcome. It could be fun to compare notes.
We don't venture out of the hills very often, but if we're ever going to be out your way I'll let you know.

Ron

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Old 03-23-2017, 08:49 AM   #222
Budd
 
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
You're the one making the statements Bernd, so why don't you show us a correct demonstration of what you're talking about.
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Bernd Lehnen wrote: View Post
Hi Budd,

Dan always says it's not about him or name dropping. But who could be more qualified to move the discussion further than he himself or any other genuine proponent in this realm? So I find it a real pity that he hasn't been allowed to take part in this forum for some time now.
I even can't see why this is so and don't know whether he would like to take part in this by now.
I myself can only impart my humble personal opinion and experience. Still, reading the posts of e.g. Jon Reading or Darren Sims and Chris Li's sangenkai blog might help considerably, though.

Best,
Bernd
Hah, well there's years of content worth of discussions from multiple folks that are no longer posting - much of it still applicable even amidst the white noise. No offense to Jon, Darren or Chris, but I don't see a lot of how to's coming there, either. Happy to kick it off, though . . .

So, dealing with an incoming force - in an aikido context, when someone grabs you (either wrist or shoulder), using vanilla internal strength concepts, you'd want to as very basics have the ability to meet that grab with the appropriate balance of ground and gravity strengths - meaning, I can either let the force transmit through me to reflect off of the ground back into the grabber, floating them upwards, or allow the gravity strength to kick in to plant them on their front foot and glue the grabber to you. Then there's balancing both forces so that the grabber feels like they are floated and their ability to apply power to you is disrupted.

All three of the above can be explained as kuzushi on contact (though there's kuzushi before contact implications as well) and there's tactical and strategic reasons why one would want to emphasize one over the other - as just a basic training device to build conditioning and skill. - as well as being fully congruent in a physical sense with a practical definition of "aiki" as "harmonizing energy (or forces)", these initially being the naturally occurring forces of gravity pulling you down and the ground pushing you up and progressing from there.

But wait, there's more - the ability to cleanly do these things (and initially think of them as ideals to strive for and have training partners that help you progressively improve based on the type of grabs and attacks they deliver - i.e. less talking and theorizing and more giving you less dumb forces to deal with over time) *ahem* the ability to cleanly do these things has implications with regard to how you will make techniques work over time, how techniques do or don't work on you as well as the ability to leverage the elasticity of the body to greatly enhance the power available to you (how your body responds to and initiates movement, force, etc.).

And if you already do that (generally speaking, not you, specifically, Bernd), then cool, but my hope is we could then have a fruitful discussion around some of the topics I listed above as some of the table stakes to progressively training the body to be different. If you aren't doing something like this as a beginner step to a much more sophisticated way of moving and carrying the body, then the good news is that there are folks working on those very things that I'm sure will share more info if you approach them in a considerate manner.

FWIW

Last edited by Budd : 03-23-2017 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 03-23-2017, 09:59 AM   #223
MrIggy
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
I would raise the argument that we (aikido community) will tolerate, and even positively comment on a video of someone performing, say ribbon aikido.
It depends on the "community" and on the type of Aikido that is shown.

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Yet, as soon as a conversation of aiki comes up, "well, I would need to see it work to believe it."
Because, in general, people think of it as something mystical just as much as O'Sensei's speeches and writings. Off course O'Sensei didn't help much with the way he taught/didn't teach Aiki.

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Third, I am consuming this thread as an inquiry into the benefits of IP training, and the differences between IP and "regular" training. It's a compare/contrast conversation.thread is probably hard to follow.
More or less. Well, it's not that hard to follow if somebody is willing to read the posts, ask the right questions and highlight the answers.
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Old 03-23-2017, 11:05 AM   #224
MrIggy
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
I do wish we could unwind the conversation of "do you do IS" or "is IS incorporated into your aikido" from the seemingly embedded conclusion that one's aikido is somehow "less" or not fulfilling for them. I can't reinforce enough that if you're enjoying your training and getting what you want out of it, then great. I just wish we could elevate the discussion from personalities and fabled traits to more "this is how it works within traditional definitions of "ki", "qi", "kokyu", "jin", etc. and align the buzzwords to demonstrable, explainable phenomena rather than storytelling, metaphysics and or mysticism.
OK, i'l bite. This isn't simply about whether somebody's Aikido is "fulfilling" or not, it's whether their Aikido can be actually used as a martial art. Many will say:"Oh, there's the missing ingredient from my Aikido practice, now i can finally use my Aikido against an unwilling, uncooperative opponent." when in fact the main reason their Aikido sucks is because they suck at training it. I just can't seem to understand how does somebody think they can use something so hard to attain in their daily training when they can't even attain good grounding in basic/regular/external training. The fact that they suck at one thing is unfortunately a pretty good indicator that they will suck at another unless they make some root changes. Not to mention if they try "adding Aiki" to something in the "real" context of martial arts.

Just out of curiosity, what would you define as a "stupid jin trick"?

Quote:
Even the title of this thread is a bit troubling because unless it's a rhetorical eye-roll "air quote" question, then it's pretty blatantly absurd. Some baseline parameters are that NOTHING makes you invincible. Having more conditioning and skill tends to improve performance. There can be misalignment between IS approaches and an individual or group's aikido practice. There also doesn't have to be a conflict between exploring internal strength and maintaining a group association.
Based on the concept of what is used, when and how i would tend do disagree on the note that "nothing" makes you invincible.
When you are talking about misalignment, do you mean just the training part or some broader reference? As for the training part, from many of the posts here one would think that nothing of today's Aikido training, besides some of Taiso training, is aligned with IS training. It's also been mentioned that people tend to change the way they do their "regular" Aikido training so it's aligned to the internal training because of the before mentioned misalignment. What it your opinion on the subject?

Last edited by MrIggy : 03-23-2017 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 03-23-2017, 11:54 AM   #225
MrIggy
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
So, dealing with an incoming force - in an aikido context, when someone grabs you (either wrist or shoulder), using vanilla internal strength concepts, you'd want to as very basics have the ability to meet that grab with the appropriate balance of ground and gravity strengths - meaning, I can either let the force transmit through me to reflect off of the ground back into the grabber, floating them upwards, or allow the gravity strength to kick in to plant them on their front foot and glue the grabber to you. Then there's balancing both forces so that the grabber feels like they are floated and their ability to apply power to you is disrupted.
Would the bold part be the "Turn their attack into nothing" or do all three ways generally fall into that group?

Quote:
All three of the above can be explained as kuzushi on contact (though there's kuzushi before contact implications as well) and there's tactical and strategic reasons why one would want to emphasize one over the other - as just a basic training device to build conditioning and skill. - as well as being fully congruent in a physical sense with a practical definition of "aiki" as "harmonizing energy (or forces)", these initially being the naturally occurring forces of gravity pulling you down and the ground pushing you up and progressing from there.
How would you define those implications? Timing of alignment of forces in your own body or something else?
So the general idea of Aiki being the blending or harmonizing the forces of you and your opponent is misguided, because the essential idea is to actually blend the forces of "heaven and earth" aka ground and gravity in you own body and use it to neutralize any foreign force, if possible of course, outside your body. Something like that?

Quote:
But wait, there's more - the ability to cleanly do these things (and initially think of them as ideals to strive for and have training partners that help you progressively improve based on the type of grabs and attacks they deliver - i.e. less talking and theorizing and more giving you less dumb forces to deal with over time) *ahem* the ability to cleanly do these things has implications with regard to how you will make techniques work over time, how techniques do or don't work on you as well as the ability to leverage the elasticity of the body to greatly enhance the power available to you (how your body responds to and initiates movement, force, etc.).
So in general, my body, techniques, and everything else has to evolve over time to become aligned with the forces of gravity and earth, in my body, so that a can actually use them in a natural course of things? Or something similar to that?

Quote:
If you aren't doing something like this as a beginner step to a much more sophisticated way of moving and carrying the body, then the good news is that there are folks working on those very things that I'm sure will share more info if you approach them in a considerate manner.
And that's one of the issues, who would you propose as being the best suitable teacher for a beginner in this process? If you rather would't answer i can understand that.

Last edited by MrIggy : 03-23-2017 at 11:56 AM.
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