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Old 03-20-2017, 05:31 AM   #176
GovernorSilver
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Aiki in any position, eh? How about when you're lying in the park napping?
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Old 03-20-2017, 05:42 AM   #177
Alec Corper
 
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Sorry Oisin, I don't do videos because there will always be some jerk out there who wants to criticise my stuff, even if they don't understand what I'm doing. ;-)

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 03-20-2017, 05:59 AM   #178
oisin bourke
 
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Thumbs down Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
Sorry Oisin, I don't do videos because there will always be some jerk out there who wants to criticise my stuff, even if they don't understand what I'm doing. ;-)
I assume that's not targeted at me. In any event, because ye were so free to criticize the videos others i thought it's only fair to give people an idea of what it is ye are criticizing. It's more productive imo.
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:22 AM   #179
Bernd Lehnen
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Oisin,
When I say I can't see it, that doesn't mean you couldn't.
So, please, what did you see?
Best,
Bernd
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:40 AM   #180
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
Sorry Oisin, I don't do videos because there will always be some jerk out there who wants to criticise my stuff, even if they don't understand what I'm doing. ;-)
At least you didn't say uke is going to die.
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:45 AM   #181
Alec Corper
 
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
I assume that's not targeted at me. In any event, because ye were so free to criticize the videos others i thought it's only fair to give people an idea of what it is ye are criticizing. It's more productive imo.
Of course it is targeted at you. You are being critical of others being critical of others without being certain that is what they are doing.
Watching and seeing are 2 different things. If I can't feel someones technique I need to develop the ability to see. If iI can't feel and and I can't see how can I do. BTW, I'm not some punk, I started MA before you were born so get off your high horse.

respectfully yours (with a list of grades that don't mean diddly squat in the real world, unless you think they do))
Aikikai 5th Dan
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Chuan She Chuan boxing Black Sash
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If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:48 AM   #182
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
At least you didn't say uke is going to die.
Demetrio,
I would never say such a thing to anyone, not even if meant it

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:54 AM   #183
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
Of course it is targeted at you. You are being critical of others being critical of others without being certain that is what they are doing.
Watching and seeing are 2 different things. If I can't feel someones technique I need to develop the ability to see. If iI can't feel and and I can't see how can I do. BTW, I'm not some punk, I started MA before you were born so get off your high horse.

respectfully yours (with a list of grades that don't mean diddly squat in the real world, unless you think they do))
Aikikai 5th Dan
Shinkendo Chuden Renshu Kaku
Toyama Ryu Battojutsu 1st Dan
Chuan She Chuan boxing Black Sash
Apprentice Instructor WDS
I asked you to post a video of you doing something correctly that you crticise others for and you insult me.
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:56 AM   #184
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Bernd Lehnen wrote: View Post
Oisin,
When I say I can't see it, that doesn't mean you couldn't.
So, please, what did you see?
Best,
Bernd
You're the one making the statements Bernd, so why don't you show us a correct demonstration of what you're talking about.
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:59 AM   #185
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Oisin,
You asked for other people to justify what you believe to be criticism. I would suggest you look in your own heart for who was doing what to who. I am not insulting you but that may not stop you feeling insulted. I do not know you, you may be excellent at what you do and be a very sincere man. You do not know me and i certainly don't feel the need to justify my observations.
God bless.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:02 AM   #186
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
You're the one making the statements Bernd, so why don't you show us a correct demonstration of what you're talking about.
You're beating a dead horse my friend.

Ron

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Old 03-20-2017, 07:07 AM   #187
Alec Corper
 
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

couldn't resist eh Ron?

Oh well thats me done for another 6 months or so.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:08 AM   #188
oisin bourke
 
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
Oisin,
You asked for other people to justify what you believe to be criticism. I would suggest you look in your own heart for who was doing what to who. I am not insulting you but that may not stop you feeling insulted. I do not know you, you may be excellent at what you do and be a very sincere man. You do not know me and i certainly don't feel the need to justify my observations.
God bless.
Alec, it's the same thing over and over: "He's not doing internal aiki that we learned from whoever.' Right, that's fine. If people post videos publicly it's up for discussion, so in that case why don't you or whoever show us what's going on? If you can analyse a high ranking aikido practicioner crtiically, I assume you know why and can demonstrate it. In any event, it's a lot more productive than trading insults.
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:17 AM   #189
Bernd Lehnen
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
You're the one making the statements Bernd, so why don't you show us a correct demonstration of what you're talking about.
Dan doesn't and others, more able than I, dont. Reading your comments, certainly a wise decision.
By the way, I needn't, I haven't got a horse in it...
Good luck to you.

Best,
Bernd
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:51 AM   #190
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
Agree pretty much. I don't see much evidence of "intent" driven structure, but I am not as strict as you are
I don't see intent-driven mechanisms (i.e. tanden/meimon usage, etc.) for holding structure, either. But he does start with alignment and "relaxation" -- alignment of his joints. Because the alignments are passive (not held by intent-driven adjustments of sinew, fascia, specific muscle), he can't maintain them once he moves.
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:54 AM   #191
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Any chance any of ye will post a video of yourselves doing this "correctly", so we can see the difference?
You are welcome to train with us anytime for hands-on feel and discussion. That is a sincere, and sincerely friendly, invitation.
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:59 AM   #192
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Arrow Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
You are welcome to train with us anytime for hands-on feel and discussion. That is a sincere, and sincerely friendly, invitation.
So that's a no to the video then. Okay.
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:10 AM   #193
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
So that's a no to the video then. Okay.
You can shoot video if you visit.
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:15 AM   #194
oisin bourke
 
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Question Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
You can shoot video if you visit.
That just comes across as marketing to me. I'll pass.
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:20 AM   #195
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
That just comes across as marketing to me. I'll pass.
Are you serious?
That's unfortunate if you are. I lead a tiny AJJ study group in Boston. Also, I train in internal Chinese martial arts (Zhong Xin Dao/I Liq Chuan) and train in a study group for that, as well.
I don't make any money from aiki. It's just something I love to study and practice, and have been doing so for the past 19 years.

You are still welcome if you're ever on this side of the pond.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:45 AM   #196
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

I would raise the argument that we (aikido community) will tolerate, and even positively comment on a video of someone performing, say ribbon aikido. Or dum aikido. Or start/stop compliant uke kata. Yet, as soon as a conversation of aiki comes up, "well, I would need to see it work to believe it." Really? do you think drum aikido works? Where are the street application videos? Or, zombie aikido, or kata aikido vids? There are none. We are talking about aiki movement and aikido movement, let's keep our evaluation process fair and stop pivoting our evaluative criteria.

Second, I have tried communicating that I believe aiki in aikido is actually very rare. I think the lack of video evidence is supportive of that belief and I am not surprised that good videos of aiki are hard to find. Why do we keep throwing up instruction vids to scrutinize? All that is happening is that we are recognizing that the videos don't support IP movement while putting someone under a microscope without even given in the subject the option to respond to a video that may not reflect what we are discussing, let alone the age of the video or skill of the subject in the video. I am unclear from where the feeling that the aikido community is obligated to provide a video for consumption concerning a point of discussion is coming. There are training aspects in aikido we discuss all the time without requiring video. The problem, I think, is that IP is something that actually is foreign to many so there is not common experience on which to draw.

Third, I am consuming this thread as an inquiry into the benefits of IP training, and the differences between IP and "regular" training. It's a compare/contrast conversation. For me, that is first a fundamental question of whether you believe you have aiki, and second a question of training to develop that skill. I think many people believe they have aiki; what we hear largely from the IP community is that most of us don't. If you don't understand and appreciate that reality, I think this thread is probably hard to follow. If you don't want to explore the issue, why are you even reading the thread?

I continue to point back to the honesty (if not tongue-in-cheek) and playfulness of the thread title, which correctly identifies a separation in experience so unique and to play with the thought of invincibility in movement, which is not actually a bad descriptor of someone who moves with aiki (if somewhat sensational). One could speculate that without that feeling in your movement, it is likely that you are not moving with aiki. For all the words on the internet, it won't change how you move.

Last edited by jonreading : 03-20-2017 at 10:53 AM.

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Old 03-20-2017, 12:56 PM   #197
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

I check in periodically to see how the dialogue changes and it really hasn't since I've been watching this "debate" for more than 10 years - in that time I've been busy with training a lot of the areas that get discussed under the auspices of "internal strength". My perspective is that there's a set of common skills (and various flavors of information about them, depending on who you have access to) that get explored to various degrees regarding how to train the bodyskill of directing external forces (chiefly the naturally occurring ones of gravity and ground) and various conditioning methods to more effectively manage those forces in your body. In parallel (and this takes longer but is critical) is the bodywork to build the bones/muscles/tendon/tissue connections (to better propagate and issue the ground/gavity forces) which is different than just conditioning your body to respond to load.
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:43 PM   #198
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
I check in periodically ...
Hi Budd, time no see. How it is going?
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Old 03-20-2017, 04:55 PM   #199
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Hi Budd, time no see. How it is going?
Good and busy, Demetrio! How have you been? Have you gotten your hands on anyone doing this stuff?
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:10 PM   #200
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
I lead a tiny AJJ study group in Boston. Also, I train in internal Chinese martial arts (Zhong Xin Dao/I Liq Chuan) and train in a study group for that, as well.
Cady - I have two video links attached to this post that I looked up only to get a representative sample of the outer forms of the arts you study. The first is Sam Chin demonstrating I Liq Chuan and the second is Seigo Okamoto demonstrating Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu.

It's pretty evident from the clips that the outer forms of both arts are decidedly different in appearance. Since both arts stress the generation of internal power, I'm wondering if they share common internal power training methods or are the training methods unique to the respective art?

Ron

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