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Old 03-17-2017, 02:10 AM   #151
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

I did Yoshinkan in Japan. It is 100% kata. Tori must do 'this', uke must do 'that'. Even their jyuwaza is kata. There was no freedom whatsoever to develop in your own way. Just ... repeat repeat repeat. But after 10 years of Aikikai I quite liked the attention to detail ... the techniques were good, but ... just techniques. But to only do that would drive me nuts. I did Tomiki (Shodokan) for 10 years as well (at the same time as Aikikai, more or less) - they too have lots of kata, but there was bit more freedom to bend the waza to suit yourself. But still, just lots of techniques. I have met a few Ki-Aikido guys that had some interesting takes on techniques; stole a few bits etc. Did an Iwama style in the UK for a while - it was power and leverage. Tired it in Japan briefly - just the same. Preferred Aikikai as it was more fluid. I have come across a few others that have some aiki, but I have never seen it successfully passed on to a student anywhere else. No aiki anywhere.

My first insight to aiki was Kanetsuka Sensei in the UK. Everyone tried to do it but only his #1 student at that time - Ezra Sensei - could do it. Have come across a few such people over the years. Or occasionally, someone does a technique on you and it works almost by accident ... and then you both struggle to recreate what the heck just happened :-)

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 03-17-2017 at 02:18 AM.

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Old 03-17-2017, 05:27 PM   #152
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
My first insight to aiki was Kanetsuka Sensei in the UK. Everyone tried to do it but only his #1 student at that time - Ezra Sensei - could do it. Have come across a few such people over the years. Or occasionally, someone does a technique on you and it works almost by accident ... and then you both struggle to recreate what the heck just happened :-)
The Aikikai is purported to be sitting on a small amount of aiki/internal method -- vestiges of Morihei's skills -- that are taught only to select members, and certainly not to non-Japanese. While I have no verification of that, it would explain why some contemporary-Aikikai shihan seem to have some skills that other members to not.

As for Yoshinkan, I have not seen or heard of anyone under Shioda who received comparable skills to his. If there are any, they are sitting on those skills just as Shioda did, not perpetuating them in the art.

When you describe something "working almost by accident... and then you both struggle to recreate what the heck just happened...," that is truly a pity. If what you are describing is internal/aiki method, then there is a very cogent, specific process to teaching and learning it, and it is a damned shame if students are still being left to struggle without guidance. The teacher either has no clue how to teach it, even through direct touch, or he has no intentions of doing so. :/

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Old 03-17-2017, 06:54 PM   #153
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
The Aikikai is purported to be sitting on a small amount of aiki/internal method -- vestiges of Morihei's skills -- that are taught only to select members, and certainly not to non-Japanese. While I have no verification of that, it would explain why some contemporary-Aikikai shihan seem to have some skills that other members to not.

As for Yoshinkan, I have not seen or heard of anyone under Shioda who received comparable skills to his. If there are any, they are sitting on those skills just as Shioda did, not perpetuating them in the art.

When you describe something "working almost by accident... and then you both struggle to recreate what the heck just happened...," that is truly a pity. If what you are describing is internal/aiki method, then there is a very cogent, specific process to teaching and learning it, and it is a damned shame if students are still being left to struggle without guidance. The teacher either has no clue how to teach it, even through direct touch, or he has no intentions of doing so. :/
I suspect most people pick up on things first by accident, and then follow it up by searching for more. That was my route. I think there is a lot of accidental discovery and then wrong directions being taken. I have met some people who can do aiki but they can't teach it. Even though they try, their students just can't get it - even if they think they can. If you have a teacher that is teaching you and you are learning, then that is certainly a good teacher (and student!).

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Old 03-17-2017, 07:25 PM   #154
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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I suspect most people pick up on things first by accident, and then follow it up by searching for more. That was my route. I think there is a lot of accidental discovery and then wrong directions being taken. I have met some people who can do aiki but they can't teach it. Even though they try, their students just can't get it - even if they think they can. If you have a teacher that is teaching you and you are learning, then that is certainly a good teacher (and student!).
There really are organized ways to teach this material. While the traditional upbringing of most internal martial artists has been "jikiden" from touch/hands-on, and very little verbal coaching, there are teachers in both the Japanese and Chinese internal martial arts who now have a "westernized" approach to imparting internals. They have parsed out all of the actual biomechanics, processes, even the specific muscles and tissues involved, and have created a solid curriculum for teaching and inculcating it. It doesn't have to be guesswork!
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Old 03-17-2017, 08:03 PM   #155
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
I wouldn't say people are ignoring rather "instant kuzushi" is thought of being a part of regular waza training dependent on timing and reaction not of Aiki for which most doesn't even know exist as a separate training activity. So in a sense it is a metaphor. Instead of being "Aiki kuzushi", controlling Uke with power gained from internal training regimes, it is "waza kuzushi", pure physical control of Uke based on external practices.
The way I see it is that is being referred to is development of Aiki to the point that it becomes one's natural and normal way of being. At that point physical contact with such a person results in "instant kuzushi" as force will be then be naturally absorbed, grounded and/or redirected.

One thing that comes to mind is an interview, with whom I have forgotten, where the interviewee talks about meeting Tetsuzan Kuroda and asking about his internal power exercises. Kuroda says, in effect, that in the past people would practice a kata so intensely that they eventually became the kata (emphasis mine) but nowadays people didn't have the time for that level of dedicated practice so he created the exercises to speed things up.

If we extend that thought to all we know and have experienced with Aikido masters becoming soft and moving people easily in their old age it starts to make a lot of sense. What the IP/Aiki training is about is developing that ability earlier in life.

Thinking about it, I don't like using the term "Aiki", not because it isn't the correct term, but because it is loaded with so many images and ideas that aren't what is being talked about. Something like "Body Structure Integration" might make more sense in English. Every time I think of it from a "Western" perspective, I think of someone like an Olympic hammer thrower whom through highly advanced sports medical analysis has developed the ability to put all his physical energy into the hammer through coordinated body motion, or a swimmer that must equally co-ordinate their whole body to optimally move through the water.

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Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
While we are on the subject. Does anybody know about practitioners from Yoshinkan, Iwama or Shodokan who have dabbled in the world of Aiki and if they had more success in developing Aiki? I mean if the waza was mean't to be a vessel for Aiki, the practitioners from those styles, which are officially more authentic in the waza to that of O'Sensei, should have had it easier to develop Aiki.
I did a little Renshinkai Aikido, which is Chida Sensei's offshoot. At my sensei's class, himself a student of Chida, we did a few practices of unbalancing people separate from the waza, similar to the kinds of things that Shioda would demonstrate, but much slower. I have no idea how much of that is a reflection of what is going on in the rest of Renshinkai though.

Last edited by Currawong : 03-17-2017 at 08:14 PM.

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Old 03-18-2017, 09:03 AM   #156
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
The Aikikai is purported to be sitting on a small amount of aiki/internal method -- vestiges of Morihei's skills -- that are taught only to select members, and certainly not to non-Japanese. While I have no verification of that, it would explain why some contemporary-Aikikai shihan seem to have some skills that other members to not.
Even if they do teach them to non-Japanese instructors, and the Japanese instructors demand they don't teach them to their students, the non-Japanese instructors will not teach it out of respect/obedience to their master.

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Old 03-18-2017, 09:19 AM   #157
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
My first insight to aiki was Kanetsuka Sensei in the UK. Everyone tried to do it but only his #1 student at that time - Ezra Sensei - could do it. Have come across a few such people over the years. Or occasionally, someone does a technique on you and it works almost by accident ... and then you both struggle to recreate what the heck just happened :-)
Even on the technical part, many Japanese instructors tend to have a different opinion on what from their curriculum is to be taught, how and where. It seems ridiculous sometimes to see two different Aikido clubs, that are officially affiliated to the same head dojo, do a series of the more basic techniques quite differently. So it's no surprise that, especially in the Aiki/IP department, things come done to accidents. This is regarding the Aikikai instructors off course. Why do they do it like that, i have no idea.

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Old 03-18-2017, 10:09 AM   #158
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Looks like Omori-sensei of Shodokan and Ando-sensei of Yoshinkan didn't get the memo about not teaching/showing internal stuff to any Westerner, in this TV program.

Omori grounding a push from Western guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhDz...tu.be&t=12m40s

Both the 6H and "aiki"/IP schools of thought state that the two basic forces are Ground and Gravity (aka "Heaven and Earth", "Up and Down"). Mike and Budd both introduce peeps to Ground by having you get a push from a partner, while you try to relax and allow the force of the push to travel to your foot. I don't know if Dan H. teaches the same way. Omori is doing at least that. It's also possible to use Ground and Gravity at the same time to neutralize the push - the pusher should feel like his/her push is "disappearing" instead of being met by the solidity of the ground (which happens when the trainee is only using Ground). Unfortunately, Omori doesn't explain much.

Here Ando openly mentions - in English, no less! - the Ground force.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhDz...tu.be&t=29m31s
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Old 03-18-2017, 01:29 PM   #159
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Paolo Valladolid wrote: View Post
Looks like Omori-sensei of Shodokan and Ando-sensei of Yoshinkan didn't get the memo about not teaching/showing internal stuff to any Westerner, in this TV program.

Omori grounding a push from Western guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhDz...tu.be&t=12m40s

Both the 6H and "aiki"/IP schools of thought state that the two basic forces are Ground and Gravity (aka "Heaven and Earth", "Up and Down"). Mike and Budd both introduce peeps to Ground by having you get a push from a partner, while you try to relax and allow the force of the push to travel to your foot. I don't know if Dan H. teaches the same way. Omori is doing at least that. It's also possible to use Ground and Gravity at the same time to neutralize the push - the pusher should feel like his/her push is "disappearing" instead of being met by the solidity of the ground (which happens when the trainee is only using Ground). Unfortunately, Omori doesn't explain much.

Here Ando openly mentions - in English, no less! - the Ground force.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhDz...tu.be&t=29m31s
Sorry can't see any IP here, only usual Yoshinkan style Kokyu ho. BTW that is similar to what Kanetsuka Sensei was doing when I began aikido back in 1991, definitely useful body training but not didactically 6 direction unified force training.
The only Aikikai teacher that seemed to have some kind of IP was, IMHO, Hiroshi Kato Shihan, one of Ueshiba's original student, now greatly missed. This was particularly to be seen and felt in his form of torifune and his weapons work.. I have trained with and taken ukemi from many of the Aikikai 8th Dans and only felt very smooth, perfectly timed waza.
None of this compares to my experiences with Dan Harden, Sam Chin, or Minoru Akuzawa. With respect to all these threads are a waste of time if you have not felt anything different to standard techniques, no matter how well performed. I seriously doubt anyone in the Aikikai is "sitting" on some hidden material.
Anyway it's all been said, aiki won't make you invincible, if you can't fight, you lose. If you can, then aiki will make you better. The rest is just noise.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 03-18-2017, 03:57 PM   #160
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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The only Aikikai teacher that seemed to have some kind of IP was, IMHO, Hiroshi Kato Shihan, one of Ueshiba's original student, now greatly missed.
Shirata?
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Old 03-18-2017, 04:49 PM   #161
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Paolo Valladolid wrote: View Post
Looks like Omori-sensei of Shodokan and Ando-sensei of Yoshinkan didn't get the memo about not teaching/showing internal stuff to any Westerner, in this TV program.

Omori grounding a push from Western guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhDz...tu.be&t=12m40s
Omori was deshi to Nariyama when I was going through my kyu grades there. Every practice there were exercises designed to develop the grounding and focus - pretty much standard in Shodokan dojo everywhere. No secrets and no hyperbole but I guess that goes against some of the alternate dogma out there.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-18-2017, 04:52 PM   #162
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
The Aikikai is purported to be sitting on a small amount of aiki/internal method -- vestiges of Morihei's skills -- that are taught only to select members, and certainly not to non-Japanese. While I have no verification of that, it would explain why some contemporary-Aikikai shihan seem to have some skills that other members to not.

As for Yoshinkan, I have not seen or heard of anyone under Shioda who received comparable skills to his. If there are any, they are sitting on those skills just as Shioda did, not perpetuating them in the art.

When you describe something "working almost by accident... and then you both struggle to recreate what the heck just happened...," that is truly a pity. If what you are describing is internal/aiki method, then there is a very cogent, specific process to teaching and learning it, and it is a damned shame if students are still being left to struggle without guidance. The teacher either has no clue how to teach it, even through direct touch, or he has no intentions of doing so. :/
Mori: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WRC_u_e3jM
Payet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSN68aHaRJA

Last edited by Tim Fong : 03-18-2017 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 03-18-2017, 06:19 PM   #163
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Omori was deshi to Nariyama when I was going through my kyu grades there. Every practice there were exercises designed to develop the grounding and focus - pretty much standard in Shodokan dojo everywhere. No secrets and no hyperbole but I guess that goes against some of the alternate dogma out there.
Sounds like I might enjoy training at a Shodokan dojo sometime.
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Old 03-18-2017, 10:24 PM   #164
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Alec Corper wrote: View Post
Sorry can't see any IP here, only usual Yoshinkan style Kokyu ho. BTW that is similar to what Kanetsuka Sensei was doing when I began aikido back in 1991.
I was in the BAF in the 80s. Kanetsuka trained at Shiseikan and I ended up there for awhile when I was an exchange student in Japan. Shiseikan at that time had a strong Yoshinkan bent, with a touch of Aikikai. I think they were in transition. A few years previously I was with Ando Sensei for a year. I have been about ... in my search. At that time, only Kanetsuka had 'something'. All we could do was to try to steal it. But it was good to at least know there was something to search for and that has stayed with me ever since. I should point out there were some teachers at that time (I was a mere nobody) that just could not do what he was doing and thought it was rubbish - too hairy fairy - and they left and made some new org. They concentrated on solid tech etc. But Kanetsuka had tremendous yet subtle power (during and after his cancer). I think they left because they just could not do it. He made all seniors look like total jerks at that time, as did Chiba Sensei, and some seniors just couldn't hack it. You had to lose your ego to train with Kanetsuka.

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Old 03-18-2017, 11:07 PM   #165
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Thanks.
Mori looks like a "hybrid" of muscle strength and a small amount of meimon (back) work. Payet has some aligned structure, but need to see more video. Neither comes close to having the body method that Shioda had. At best, some people have gotten little bits and pieces, and no cogent body of knowledge/skills.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 03-18-2017 at 11:15 PM.
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Old 03-19-2017, 12:29 AM   #166
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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The way I see it is that is being referred to is development of Aiki to the point that it becomes one's natural and normal way of being. At that point physical contact with such a person results in "instant kuzushi" as force will be then be naturally absorbed, grounded and/or redirected.
Agreed.

Quote:
One thing that comes to mind is an interview, with whom I have forgotten, where the interviewee talks about meeting Tetsuzan Kuroda and asking about his internal power exercises. Kuroda says, in effect, that in the past people would practice a kata so intensely that they eventually became the kata (emphasis mine) but nowadays people didn't have the time for that level of dedicated practice so he created the exercises to speed things up.

If we extend that thought to all we know and have experienced with Aikido masters becoming soft and moving people easily in their old age it starts to make a lot of sense. What the IP/Aiki training is about is developing that ability earlier in life.
I agree on these parts, but as Peter pointed out:

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Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
It really depends on what the technique within the kata is and how it is practiced. Some techniques within the aikido syllabus don't lend themselves to aiki just as the old Daito-ryu differentiated between jujutsu and aiki-no-jutsu techniques. For the ones that do - kata should be executed with aiki throughout. For the others, I personally think that there are places we can sneak in a little aiki. In either case, kata can be used to train aiki although I wont argue the point that often this is not done very well. I also wont argue the point that there are ancillary exercises that help train aiki more directly but kata does provide the bridge to applicability (if trained correctly).
Therefore there has to be made a clear difference between which Kata should be trained early on for the sole purpose of developing Aiki, and which Kata should be trained because they are martially sound. Also refinement of certain Kata's and techniques, for the more combative approach, should be taken into consideration as well.

Quote:
Thinking about it, I don't like using the term "Aiki", not because it isn't the correct term, but because it is loaded with so many images and ideas that aren't what is being talked about. Something like "Body Structure Integration" might make more sense in English. Every time I think of it from a "Western" perspective, I think of someone like an Olympic hammer thrower whom through highly advanced sports medical analysis has developed the ability to put all his physical energy into the hammer through coordinated body motion, or a swimmer that must equally co-ordinate their whole body to optimally move through the water.
The problem is that medical analysis, or pure scientific analysis for that matter, doesn't "analyze" well this kind of training. I don't think even some sort of analysis, besides the pure empirical ones by trainees, have ever been tried. A good thing that you mentioned an Olympic hammer thrower. My Sensei was a junior state champion in shot putting and also a third place in javelin throwing (maybe vice-versa). Anyway, her body movement and mechanics are highly coordinated plus she has that body explosion, or lurch, as though you were hit by a missile and then carried away with all of your momentum that you have given. In perspective it's quite the opposite from what is being explained as Aiki, although the main goal is the same, to turn the enemies attack into nothing. Many fencers would surely envy her on her body movement and explosion.

Quote:
I did a little Renshinkai Aikido, which is Chida Sensei's offshoot. At my sensei's class, himself a student of Chida, we did a few practices of unbalancing people separate from the waza, similar to the kinds of things that Shioda would demonstrate, but much slower. I have no idea how much of that is a reflection of what is going on in the rest of Renshinkai though.
Probably not much i am afraid.
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Old 03-19-2017, 04:41 AM   #167
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Shirata?
Hello Peter,
I never met Shirata. There are a group here in The Netherlands training under Alan Beebe who was a deshi of Shrata. He is also studying under Dan Harden, so undoubtedly they can trace a root of Aiki there. So, you are correct in rejecting my generalism, there are possibly others hiding out there away from mainstream Aikikai.

Tim Fong,
As someone who trains with Ark I am surprised at your choice of video examples. Mori looks very good at what he does but seems to rely on speed and youthful strength. That, plus collusive ukes, doesn't show much else to me. No disrespect intended. Payet shows a much more relaxed and dense body structure whilst retaining lightness, reminiscent of Shioda.

Videos generally fail to convey a premise for useful discussion unless we know what was supposedly being being demonstrated. Most push tests are unglamorous and, if really good, not much to look at. The kuzushi that occurs is imperceptible and the technique is born at that moment so it is easy to miss what happened just before.Added to this problem is that ukes rarely attack with intent and,if they do, it is along a predetermined path with a conditioned body response. It is interesting to try this against military or security guys ( as training or it's too dangerous). Sometimes it works, sometimes not, but the feedback is very different. Likewise playing with people without the Sensei/ deshi paradigm, where either can be uke or tori, such as freestyle tui shou, reveals a great deal about the quality of action within non- action. When you have no idea what will happen you have to "listen", and be able to act freely without intention clouding your mind, whilst your body remains full of intent at any every point of contact.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 03-19-2017, 01:20 PM   #168
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Hi Alec,
Keep in mind that I haven't seen or trained with Ark in several years now since he was last in Southern California. My opinions should be seen as mine alone.
At 7:33 in the video Mori pulls into himself
Quote:
Mori looks very good at what he does but seems to rely on speed and youthful strength. That, plus collusive ukes, doesn't show much else to me. No disrespect intended.
None taken. Here is what I see in the video. At 7:33 Mori starts showing movement against a two handed wrist grab. At around 7:46 he pulls into himself, hence his bends forward, which is what completes the throw. I am pretty sure he does that by connecting the top and bottom of his body into one unit via the musculature in his core that connects the spine to the top of each femur, along with the fascial deep front line. His uke of course responds in the typical aikido fashion. He talks about locking his uke's body -- not sure if he's doing this with some internal spiral movement or not -- maybe. When I say connecting the top and bottom of the body together, I mean the ability to drop oneself down faster than gravity. Often the way people do this (or any forward throw is to relax and let their body mass collapse towards the ground. Pretty effective for heavier people. On the other hand, there is a way to literally pull the torso towards the ground, which is much stronger and also, if going straight down (i.e. dropping down into a squat) the person doing it will drop faster than they would with just gravity alone pulling them down. Around 8:39 Mori talks again about "solidifying [uke's] bone frame" and then shows a couple responses to an elbow grab. I kind of wonder if he's using his the flattening of the abdomen (tanden) to lead a spiral turning his arm in at 8:55. Mori's uke's do the typical aikido thing of providing one constant attack/force,and obviously in a freestyle situation is different. Around 10:29 or so Mori starts to show defenses to someone grabbing the front of the dogi. HIs partner is a fairly solid guy, and again, Mori says "solidify" which looks again to me like connecting the top and bottom of the body and pulling down.

Around 10:48 uke lifts Mori up on his toes, but because he connects top and bottom he regains control and moves uke. Around 11:49 uke lifts Mori completely off the ground, then there's a jump cut to a different camera angle for the throw -- wish I could see that from the same initial view.

Quote:
Payet shows a much more relaxed and dense body structure whilst retaining lightness, reminiscent of Shioda.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSN68aHaRJA
Around :29 Payet points to himself and then I see him use his head to lead his spine (along with an inhale), as the left hand comes down against uke, which is how Payet is pinning the guy.

Here's a video of Payet showing tenchi nage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8_GF5KiWT0
He shows locking up the hip via maintaining his own top bottom connection. Maybe some kind of spiraling through his hands also, can't really tell. But he is definitely manipulating the up/down, you see it at around :59 when he steps, and then off balances his uke by lifting him up. Then at 1:03, Payet drops again and uses the rising up from the drop to again manipulate the uke and off balance uke further, while Payet brings his back foot up simultaneously with his rise. Around 1:04 you see the effect of Payet's second step he lifts uke up more, and then using that off balance is able to continue to break uke down towards the ground when Payet lowers himself further.

I am pretty sure Payet is also using the mechanic of pulling into himself that I described above.

Quote:
. Likewise playing with people without the Sensei/ deshi paradigm, where either can be uke or tori, such as freestyle tui shou, reveals a great deal about the quality of action within non- action.
I agree. The one thing I like about watching aikido videos and sometimes training with aikido people is that having a clear single vectored attack can make it easier (at first) to find the correct quality of movement. Learning to adapt to a changing force is something I have found to be easier within a push hands context.
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Old 03-19-2017, 01:43 PM   #169
Tim Fong
 
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Tim Fong wrote: View Post
HIs partner is a fairly solid guy, and again, Mori says "solidify" which looks again to me like connecting the top and bottom of the body and pulling down.
Should read as "his partner is a fairly heavy guy"
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Old 03-19-2017, 07:09 PM   #170
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Not seeing anything "internal" in Payet. He has some relaxed alignment when static, but as soon as he steps and moves, his structure is gone and he is rocking on his feet, and leaning with his own center of gravity/mass compromised. There is no kuzushi on contact, which would be evident if his body were being held in an internal structure. And, he's using mechanical alignment-positioning in uke to get uke's upper body to go beyond his center of mass.
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Old 03-20-2017, 03:17 AM   #171
Alec Corper
 
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Not seeing anything "internal" in Payet. He has some relaxed alignment when static, but as soon as he steps and moves, his structure is gone and he is rocking on his feet, and leaning with his own center of gravity/mass compromised. There is no kuzushi on contact, which would be evident if his body were being held in an internal structure. And, he's using mechanical alignment-positioning in uke to get uke's upper body to go beyond his center of mass.
Agree pretty much. I don't see much evidence of "intent" driven structure, but I am not as strict as you are

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Old 03-20-2017, 05:40 AM   #172
Bernd Lehnen
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Not seeing anything "internal" in Payet. He has some relaxed alignment when static, but as soon as he steps and moves, his structure is gone and he is rocking on his feet, and leaning with his own center of gravity/mass compromised. There is no kuzushi on contact, which would be evident if his body were being held in an internal structure. And, he's using mechanical alignment-positioning in uke to get uke's upper body to go beyond his center of mass.
Although I pretty much agree, I wouldn't just look only for internal structure. Dan Harden sometimes goes into off mode on purpose to show something more clearly but you would be trapped because aiki is still there and works in any position. As I found out, myself, you simply can't pretend to have (no) aiki.

Best,
Bernd
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Old 03-20-2017, 05:42 AM   #173
oisin bourke
 
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Not seeing anything "internal" in Payet. He has some relaxed alignment when static, but as soon as he steps and moves, his structure is gone and he is rocking on his feet, and leaning with his own center of gravity/mass compromised. There is no kuzushi on contact, which would be evident if his body were being held in an internal structure. And, he's using mechanical alignment-positioning in uke to get uke's upper body to go beyond his center of mass.
Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
Agree pretty much. I don't see much evidence of "intent" driven structure, but I am not as strict as you are
Quote:
Bernd Lehnen wrote: View Post
Although I pretty much agree, I wouldn't just look only for internal structure. Dan Harden sometimes goes into off mode on purpose to show something more clearly but you would be trapped because aiki is still there and works in any position. As I found out, myself, you simply can't pretend to have (no) aiki.

Best,
Bernd
Any chance any of ye will post a video of yourselves doing this "correctly", so we can see the difference?
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Old 03-20-2017, 05:51 AM   #174
Bernd Lehnen
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Any chance any of ye will post a video of yourselves doing this "correctly", so we can see the difference?
No.
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:01 AM   #175
oisin bourke
 
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

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Bernd Lehnen wrote: View Post
No.
Thought not.
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