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Old 03-02-2017, 12:35 PM   #26
GovernorSilver
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
.

Second video is too long t, so not clear what you found similar, all the parts I saw had clear and rather simple mechanical principles behind them, no "super hidden" aiki.
One more comment on this:

Ando-sensei's explanation is very similar to that of Goldberg's in the video that Ron Ragusa posted. Both videos show a teacher who is a little man taking command of a big man's balance by applying the force of gravity onto his wrist.

I see nothing wrong in having fundamentally sound principles. When a 130lb man pits a good chunk of his bodyweight (gravity) against a 200lb man's wrist, the wrist will lose.

Last edited by GovernorSilver : 03-02-2017 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 03-02-2017, 03:06 PM   #27
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

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Mark Raugas wrote: View Post
I agree, having been through that very process. You may have to get rid of a bunch of things along the way. My guess is with aikido, the core waza are more likely to survive such a process? Would some Aiki waza and kokyu nage survive but not others?

Mark
Mark, from my perspective, the waza would survive... particularly that which was derived from Daito Ryu Aiki Budo/Aikijujutsu to begin with. What would change is the power driver for waza. Aiki/internals is the power driver for aikijujutsu, and is inherent in the body's structure and "pre-waza" state. It is not in itself "technique," but a condition, as you likely know from your experience. We create aiki within our body, then when contact is made with an opponent, he is immediately affected (kuzushi on contact); then, we can move our arms, change our over shape, etc. in different ways to achieve specific effects... set him up for takedown, throw, lock, pin, etc. With internal method, the power and potential energy is already inherent in the body before contact is made.

When the internal method was removed or lost from contemporary aikido, the power for waza had to be created by the overt movements of the waza themselves. Tenkan became necessary for generating centripedal force, for example, and luring uke to overreach himself in order for nage to exploit uke's momentum, became a tactic of the art.
When there was aiki, nage never had to do these things. They used internal mechanisms to draw uke to them, to take his center whether he was "tricked" or not. Outward movement and stepping were unnecessary, as was having to lead uke into a void by uke's own volition.

In essence, the mechanisms that drive contemporary aikido are the polar or near-polar opposites for the mechanism that drive authentic aikijujutsu and other internal arts. So, even though the waza themselves would exist, they would look somewhat different due to the different power drivers. Notably, the movements of aikijujutsu are smaller and more direct (composed of minute spirals and helixes), while contemporary aikido operates on larger overt circular movement.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 03-02-2017 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 03-02-2017, 05:13 PM   #28
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Hello Mark,

This is a footnote to Cady's post. I suggest you look at the very early training manuals published under the imprimatur of Morihei Ueshiba before World War II (that is, before Kisshomaru took over the running of the art). The line drawings made by Kunigoshi were done in 1933, just two years after Ueshiba opened his Kobukan Dojo. True, they might not make much sense to the novice, but they are the result of intensive training at a seminar conducted by aikido's main exponent of IP skills: Ueshiba himself. I have used the book myself and the movements are very small -- have to be small. There are none of the big circles characteristic of Kisshomaru's aikido.

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 03-02-2017, 05:22 PM   #29
IvLabush
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

To Ron Ragusa
I think that 'aiki' that uses when someone takes a grip had to be used specifically. Meaningless to use 'aiki' if grip loosens or the opponent like to fall down or run away at the very first moments. 'Aiki' could give a tactical advantage against a skilled opponent. For other matters, jujutsu exists. 'Aikijujutsu' uses 'aiki' idea on top of the jujutsu techniques. It's easy to imagine that student should have jujutsu skills before learning 'aiki' application.

To Devon Smith
Thank you for sharing the nice article. I agree with you what division to 'bujutsu' and 'budo' could be artificial. I think that some of 'Aikijujutsu' appear as result of attempts to dissociate Aikido pushing by critics.

To Amir Krause
I have no so mutch experience in Aikido so my opinion could be less valuable than yours. I mentioned about this situation before. 'Aiki' depends on the practitioner and martial art that he or she practiced. Something that's correct it one martial art might be claimed wrong in other. So it could be points of view on 'aiki' idea that is different that yours.
People base thoughts about something with keep in mind previous experience. The lady on the first one video practiced Kodokai Daito-ryu. At that point may I ask you a question - have you ever practice with guys from Kodokai?

I'd like to thank you all for sharing your thoughts from the different experience and different martial arts perspectives.
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Old 03-03-2017, 07:09 AM   #30
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello Mark,

... I suggest you look at the very early training manuals published under the imprimatur of Morihei Ueshiba before World War II
I was going to write this.

Lots of the waza contained in these manuals are martially sound.
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Old 03-03-2017, 07:54 AM   #31
GovernorSilver
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

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Ivan Labushevskiy wrote: View Post
The lady on the first one video practiced Kodokai Daito-ryu. At that point may I ask you a question - have you ever practice with guys from Kodokai?
There is a Daito Ryu Kodokai study group in my area. They meet once a week. I sent them an email requesting permission to join, but got no reply.

I later joined the Aikido dojo. Aikido does not seem as exotic but I'm quite happy with this dojo.

It was at an Aikido seminar that I met George Ledyard-sensei. He still practices Aikido and is still loyal to Saotome-shihan. However, he also trains with Howard Popkin, who is passing on the teachings of Daito Ryu Roppokai. So that is my one encounter with somebody who knows Daito Ryu.

Last edited by GovernorSilver : 03-03-2017 at 07:58 AM.
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Old 03-03-2017, 10:13 AM   #32
Mark Raugas
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello Mark,

This is a footnote to Cady's post. I suggest you look at the very early training manuals published under the imprimatur of Morihei Ueshiba before World War II (that is, before Kisshomaru took over the running of the art). The line drawings made by Kunigoshi were done in 1933, just two years after Ueshiba opened his Kobukan Dojo. True, they might not make much sense to the novice, but they are the result of intensive training at a seminar conducted by aikido's main exponent of IP skills: Ueshiba himself. I have used the book myself and the movements are very small -- have to be small. There are none of the big circles characteristic of Kisshomaru's aikido.

Best wishes,
Hi Peter,

Thank you. Looking around a bit on line, I am happy that Chris Li is making scans of some early manuals available. When I get some time blocked off I want to look at them and compare them a bit to the volumes of Saito that Stan Pranin collated and made available online for sale.

Mark
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Old 03-04-2017, 08:15 AM   #33
IvLabush
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

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Paolo Valladolid wrote: View Post
There is a Daito Ryu Kodokai study group in my area. They meet once a week. I sent them an email requesting permission to join, but got no reply.

I later joined the Aikido dojo. Aikido does not seem as exotic but I'm quite happy with this dojo.

It was at an Aikido seminar that I met George Ledyard-sensei. He still practices Aikido and is still loyal to Saotome-shihan. However, he also trains with Howard Popkin, who is passing on the teachings of Daito Ryu Roppokai. So that is my one encounter with somebody who knows Daito Ryu.
My question has been addressed to Amir Krause but it was nice to know about your experience. I wonder to people that practice both Aikido and Aikijujutsu. It must be hard to combine different martial arts in one body.
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Old 03-04-2017, 11:58 AM   #34
GovernorSilver
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Quote:
Ivan Labushevskiy wrote: View Post
My question has been addressed to Amir Krause but it was nice to know about your experience. I wonder to people that practice both Aikido and Aikijujutsu. It must be hard to combine different martial arts in one body.
That's one of many questions I forgot to ask Ledyard - what it's like to practice both Aikido and Daito Ryu.

I'd like to check out Daito Ryu and feel more Daito Ryu people eventually but now I have enough material to practice.
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Old 03-07-2017, 01:46 PM   #35
Amir Krause
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Quote:
Ivan Labushevskiy wrote: View Post
To Ron Ragusa

To Amir Krause
I have no so mutch experience in Aikido so my opinion could be less valuable than yours. I mentioned about this situation before. 'Aiki' depends on the practitioner and martial art that he or she practiced. Something that's correct it one martial art might be claimed wrong in other. So it could be points of view on 'aiki' idea that is different that yours.
People base thoughts about something with keep in mind previous experience. The lady on the first one video practiced Kodokai Daito-ryu. At that point may I ask you a question - have you ever practice with guys from Kodokai?

I'd like to thank you all for sharing your thoughts from the different experience and different martial arts perspectives.
if one is showing a universal principle, it will work on anyone, not only inside some practice group.
I have not had the chance to practice with Kodokai, nor with many others, yet, this stuff does seem so peculiar, I stick to previous comment - won't believe it until I do get a chance to feel it on myself. And note, I was refering to something vey specific, most of the videos showed high level usage of well known (in my mind) mechanical principles, only that one was different (and again, as I wrote there, it could be a different camera angle will show something which would change my opinion, this is a known video limitation in my mind)

Regards
Amir
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Old 03-07-2017, 02:05 PM   #36
IvLabush
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
I have not had the chance to practice with Kodokai, nor with many others, yet, this stuff does seem so peculiar, I stick to previous comment - won't believe it until I do get a chance to feel it on myself.
This is the straight answer to my question. I've been thinking the same when I saw last Okamoto sensei's demonstration for the first time. It's the best solution to have own experience.

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Old 03-08-2017, 06:53 AM   #37
GovernorSilver
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

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Amir Krause wrote: View Post
I do get a chance to feel it on myself.
Fair enough. To everyone watching Ledyard-sensei and myself, we just looked like two guys holding hands. But nobody would have understood what was going on unless he/she felt Ledyard himself/herself.

Regarding one of the Kodokai videos, I tip my hat to those of you who can take nikkyo to your wrist for more than 10 secs. continously and not be shouting in pain like that. You guys must be the toughest dudes on Earth.

Last edited by GovernorSilver : 03-08-2017 at 06:58 AM.
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Old 03-08-2017, 07:02 AM   #38
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Quote:
Paolo Valladolid wrote: View Post
Regarding one of the Kodokai videos, I tip my hat to those of you who can take nikkyo to your wrist for more than 10 secs. continously and not be shouting in pain like that. You guys must be the toughest dudes on Earth.
Which video are you referring to?
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Old 03-08-2017, 07:12 AM   #39
PeterR
 
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Quote:
Paolo Valladolid wrote: View Post
Regarding one of the Kodokai videos, I tip my hat to those of you who can take nikkyo to your wrist for more than 10 secs. continously and not be shouting in pain like that. You guys must be the toughest dudes on Earth.
Not really, have it done to you enough you can become desensitized, some people never feel that much pain to begin with, and learning to mask discomfort is part of the training.

Flopping like a fish while screaming seems, to those more jaded, like unnecessary overacting.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-08-2017, 07:18 AM   #40
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

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Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Flopping like a fish while screaming seems, to those more jaded, like unnecessary overacting.
And a good nikkyo doesn't hurt.
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Old 03-08-2017, 09:27 AM   #41
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
And a good nikkyo doesn't hurt.
Having a bit of fun with this - but I would say you don't need pain to make it work but the presence of pain does not make it a bad nikkyo.

I remember the first time this was applied to me (maybe 5th Kyu) by Nariyama Shihan and I will happily admit I screamed like a little girl. I did not flop like a fish because the subsequent pin buried me into the mat. These days I don't have nearly the same reaction and I don't know the reason for it exactly. Could be no one does it like Nariyama, I became desensitized, or I know how to move into the technique to minimize its effect.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-08-2017, 09:37 AM   #42
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

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Having a bit of fun with this - but I would say you don't need pain to make it work but the presence of pain does not make it a bad nikkyo.
I don't disagree with that, but I like more the ones when uke collapses wondering why.
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Old 03-08-2017, 09:44 AM   #43
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I don't disagree with that, but I like more the ones when uke collapses wondering why.
I'll give you that - but my inner sadist enjoys delivering a little of the special sauce.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-08-2017, 09:47 AM   #44
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

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I'll give you that - but my shodothug enjoys delivering a little of the special sauce.
Fixed
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Old 03-08-2017, 01:08 PM   #45
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Kotegaeshi and nikkyo should control uke's structure mechanically through his joint alignment, to his center of mass. You don't need to apply pain compliance at all for it to work. But a very small "tweak" that crosses and pressures the radius and ulna is that extra sauce that can add pain to the mix.
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