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Old 12-01-2002, 01:23 AM   #26
mike lee
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Quote:
Hello, Let me introduce myself. My name is Lydon R. Patel. I am a new poster to this forum.
What art do you practice now?
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Old 12-01-2002, 06:40 AM   #27
mike lee
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consider the source

Quote:
Scroll down to "The Crime Of Contemporary Aikido"

Quite surprising to see so much "steaming" (or is it frustration ?) from a Sensei.
The man clearly has very limited experience in aikido, but he seems to think quite highly of himself. If he really knew anything about the martial arts, he wouldn't make such questionable remarks about another art on a Web page.
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Old 12-01-2002, 04:58 PM   #28
Lyndon Patel
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Aikido, Mexico City, Mexico. 1985.

Lyndon R. Patel
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Old 12-02-2002, 01:29 AM   #29
drDalek
 
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I am interested in actually SEEING some Daito Ryu Aikijutsu so that I can make up my own mind. Can anyone suggest some downloadable video clips or photos that illustrate the techniques?
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Old 12-02-2002, 01:49 AM   #30
mike lee
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stop making `sense'

Quote:
By understanding DR role in Aikido doesn't mean in any way a loss to Aikido.
DR has absolutely no role in modern aikido.
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Old 12-02-2002, 01:59 AM   #31
mike lee
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truth or consequences

Quote:
First Name Lyndon 

Last Name Patel 

Location  

Dojo  

Interests  

Primary Teacher(s)  

Occupation  
Interesting. This person appearently doesn't have a dojo or a teacher, but they suddenly show up on an aikido forum claiming that they are going to dispel aikido "myths," whatever that means. Then they start talking about another martial art. Anybody see a pattern or two developing here?
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Old 12-02-2002, 02:53 AM   #32
PeterR
 
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Re: truth or consequences

I notice that you have filled in your profile. I also remember that you were dispencing pearls of wisdom long before you did so.

There are quite a few people that haven't filled in their profile either. I didn't reallize it was mandatory. You asked where he studied, he answered. What is your problem?
Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
Interesting. This person appearently doesn't have a dojo or a teacher, but they suddenly show up on an aikido forum claiming that they are going to dispel aikido "myths," whatever that means. Then they start talking about another martial art. Anybody see a pattern or two developing here?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-02-2002, 03:11 AM   #33
mike lee
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PeterR fiction

Quote:
I notice that you have filled in your profile. I also remember that you were dispencing pearls of wisdom long before you did so.
False.

My profile was filled in as soon as I became active in a dojo. I double-checked my profile yesterday and added the flag for fun. What's your problem?

Last edited by mike lee : 12-02-2002 at 03:14 AM.
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Old 12-02-2002, 03:26 AM   #34
PeterR
 
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Re: PeterR fiction

If you did my appologies - I seem to remember trying to figure out just who you were when you burst on to the scene.

My problem is very simple. Someone disagrees with your world view and he becomes public enemy number one. You asked the man a question, he answered, and you continue your attack - moving the goal posts. Its a pattern - are you like that in real life?


Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
False.

My profile was filled in as soon as I became active in a dojo. I double-checked my profile yesterday and added the flag for fun. What's your problem?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-02-2002, 03:34 AM   #35
mike lee
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from public enemy No. 1

Quote:
... are you like that in real life?
Is there an unreal life?

Oops! Did I move the goal posts again?
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Old 12-02-2002, 05:10 AM   #36
Bruce Baker
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center of the universe

It is a pity we are the center of the universe, but since we are limited to being who we are, learning in our human shells, we are each the center of the universe.

This may be the cause of 'goal posts moving' or pearls of wisdom that seem ungainly when put into the experience of our own lives, but there is a comedy to it all, isn't there?

As far as the title question, it would seem the validation of preserving pieces of the martial arts puzzle is in the eye of the beholder. That is to say, we have yet to find a total system that can hold all the different ways you can use martial arts, and preserve them within one or two systems of practice.

Who cares if one art is touted above another, or the roots of two arts diverge and take different paths as they develope?

The importance is that they each preserve and continue to keep alive different types of practices alive so that we have a choice to pick and choose what works for each of us.

To the effect that we needle each other ...

Oh well.

Reminds me of kids around the dinner table.
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Old 12-02-2002, 08:52 AM   #37
MikeE
 
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Back on the subject at hand.....

I think a historical understanding of Daito-ryu is very important to knowing your roots.

I think the Daito-ryu taught today is an evolution to an art that can be used in a modern era without having the legal retribution of dispacting an opponent with the casual air of an Aizu clan samurai.

Daito ryu was (the secret art practiced by the Aizu clan samurai) feared because of its battlefield effectiveness. When you were on the battlefield, you weren't concerned so much with the guy in front of you, you were worried about the 3 to 5 guys behind him.

So, it had to be brutally effective.

It's nice to know that in a life or death situation, that this is a primary root of the art I practice, and can be brutally effective if necessary.

Mike Ellefson
Midwest Center
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Old 12-02-2002, 09:06 AM   #38
mike lee
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know your art!

Quote:
I think a historical understanding of Daito-ryu is very important to knowing your roots.
I completely concur. A historical understanding of Daito-ryu is very important to knowing the roots of DR.
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Old 12-02-2002, 10:18 AM   #39
Alfonso
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I think it's important that the history be known so that there's less misinformation being repeated about stuff we don't know about.

I study Aikido, I'm barely coming to grips with its own technical repertoire which "limited" as it seems to be in counting numbers, is vast enough to keep me busy.

The problem I see with ignoring DR, is that invariably when it comes into the scene, preposterous claims follow.

Just from reading the discussions about DR, you can see that there are as many issues surrounding their practicioners as there are surrounding Aikido practicioners.

Ultimately though I don't really care that much. The Ueshiba family, and in particular Doshu (1) decided to make their art available to the world. That is a gift worthy of respect.

Yeah, so there are people who can't use Aikido effectively. So? Is the implication that DR has all that Aikido lacks? Well maybe studying the history will make that issue clear.

As for the argument that we are doing a disservice to our teachers by trying to learn what they taught???? seems to me that's upside down.

If my teacher required me to become brutally efficient at killing and breaking bones to become soft again that would be one thing. I think that second guessing, and ignoring what our teachers are trying to teach in favor of a more "rational" approach is just a way to make an excuse out of your own inadequacies.
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Old 12-02-2002, 10:56 AM   #40
Lyndon Patel
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I would like to thank this forum for allowing me to visit here and express an opinion and concern for one last time. I would like to close with the following comment.

As an Aikidoka who has retired from the art, and has past it on to my children, I can say, it is a noble and gentleman's art that has allot to offer regardless of it's parent art(s).

In a lot of the forums that I read about Aikido I have heard a tone of insecurity from some in terms of staunch resistance and complete denial to DR. This insecurity may be due to the fear Aikido will change or die because of O'Sensei's training in DR. That this knowledge that Aikido has a history in DR some how affects Aikido. I wouldn't worry. DR has already effected O'Sensei, giving rise to Aikido. DR was changed by O'Sensei. I don't think any current influence by DR is reinventing the wheel poorly.

By getting a DR tape from Aikido Journal ( the only source I know of) and looking at ( as I did ) can only enhance in understanding the differences and similarities between the two arts. Aikido isn't just about technique, it is about the intellect of O'Sensei in a changing world.

I get offended when I read posts from some DR people. Some posts I read say DR is technically better and Aikido is a diluted inferior form of DR. But I keep in mind that these people are new to DR. DR has only recently joined the world martial arts community. Like other arts, there are only a few people qualified in DR who know DR well enough to say if DR is or isn't superior to Aikido. I don't think they are going to say such a thing. Because it would be cutting off a nose to spite a face. I don't think those who post on DR in internet forums are qualified to make statements on the viability of Aikido or statements on DR. There is nothing more annoying then having a white belt /novice speak as an authority on an art. Even worse is the cheerleaders and talking heads sounding off. This doesn't matter what art it is. I don't take seriously anything on DR or criticism of Aikido unless it comes from the top.

Last thought. Of what I understand of DR, it is purely a martial art. Just as fotbal is a sport. Primarily concerned with techniques. There is no universal spiritual direction as there is in Aikido. Whereas, Aikido is two fold with spiritual and technically interrelated. Technique is to lead you to a spiritual awakening. Maybe not the kind other religions or cultures have. But the kind of realization that comes when we realize change is effective, when control is seen as a means of effective change and not as an absolute destruction. O'Sensei decided that he would give his martial arts abilities an unique purpose. That his skill wasn't just about how to defeating another person, like the old martial combat tenet, but it was to be more profoundly fulfilling and gratifying. It would not be unreasonable to say Aikido is a martial art ( let's not forget Hell dojo, or O'Sensei's skill and how he got there). Nor would it be unreasonable to say it is more than a martial art. Aikido has a component unique to it's self. A component as unique as O'Sensei was and that can never be altered regardless of Aikido's history. That component is O'Sensei. It is O'Sensei that makes Aikido, Aikido.

I don't really think it matters whether DR is or isn't Aikido's only parent. I think what matters is how people deal with new information regarding Aikido.

Lyndon R. Patel
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Old 12-02-2002, 11:36 AM   #41
MikeE
 
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I think we as Aikidoka should take pride in our Daito-ryu heritage. It allows us to see our lineage wind back hundreds and hundreds of years.

Face it, Aikido was not bourne of nothing and just sprang forth from O'Sensei. Daito ryu and (to some extent) other styles of koryu arts help O'Sensei bring together the physicality of Aikido.

IMHO, I believe the spiritual & philosophical aspects of the art are what really separates it from its predecessor. And that was definitely O'Sensei's gift to us.

Take pride in your rich heritage. Celebrate the similarities....don't dwell on the differences.

Mike Ellefson
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Old 12-02-2002, 02:38 PM   #42
Chris Li
 
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Re: know your art!

Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
I completely concur. A historical understanding of Daito-ryu is very important to knowing the roots of DR.
Are you saying that Daito-ryu had no place in the roots of Aikido?

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-02-2002, 05:50 PM   #43
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Lyndon Patel (Lyndon Patel) wrote:
I get offended when I read posts from some DR people. Some posts I read say DR is technically better and Aikido is a diluted inferior form of DR. But I keep in mind that these people are new to DR. DR has only recently joined the world martial arts community. Like other arts, there are only a few people qualified in DR who know DR well enough to say if DR is or isn't superior to Aikido.
You and me both, I think there is a lot of reactionism with respect to both views. My favourite is talking to some person who says they have been doing Daito Ryu for roughly two years and talking as if they have some deep understanding that no Aikidoist could ever get. Of course their favourite are those that deny any connection between Aikido and Takeda S.

Frankly speaking I have not been totally impressed with what I've seen of much Aikido and Daito-ryu - its the exceptions that make it interesting. I see myself amoung the masses but here in Osaka, having seen what's on offer, I train with Nariyama. Not Aikido, not Daito-ryu, but him. The fact that he calls the Budo he does Aikido is besides the point.

I think its important to understand the history of your teachers and their teachers. For an Aikidoist Daito-ryu is part of that and exploring their techniques is probably the best way to understanding the origins of what we do. By the way, I have never seen anything claimed to be Daito Ryu that I haven't seen somewhere in an Aikido dojo. It may be the old argument about variations versus distinct techniques, or I have not seen enough. Take your pick.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-02-2002, 10:32 PM   #44
Edward
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Just one more comment about aikido being deluted. I don't think this is really true. Of course Osensei excluded leg locks and strangulations from his art, but many aikido dojos do teach these techniques. This is also true for kicks. There are innumerable variations of kokyunage. They are all called kokyunage. Maybe in DR each of these techniques has a different name. Every time I visit a new dojo, I discover a new variation of kokyunage. In an interview with Kondo Sensei, he says that what we call Ikkyo in aikido is actually a group of several techniques each with a different name. Well, I humbly can say that I can do Ikkyo in at least 10 different ways, maybe more. The fact that we call them all Ikkyo in aikido does not mean that there is only one technique.
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Old 12-02-2002, 11:26 PM   #45
akiy
 
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Quote:
Edward Karaa (Edward) wrote:
In an interview with Kondo Sensei, he says that what we call Ikkyo in aikido is actually a group of several techniques each with a different name. Well, I humbly can say that I can do Ikkyo in at least 10 different ways, maybe more. The fact that we call them all Ikkyo in aikido does not mean that there is only one technique.
I'm not very well-versed in Daito Ryu so I hope people with more experience/knowledge will feel welcome to correct me, but I believe the "ikkajo no bu" (the "ikkajo" section) in Daito Ryu contains techniques that we in aikido would call ikkyo but also other "aikido" techniques like kotegaeshi and shihonage. Can anyone clarify/correct me on this?

I also believe they use the terms "omote" and "ura" in a different manner (not referring to nage's location in the technique). Can anyone clarify/correct me on this, too?

-- Jun

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Old 12-03-2002, 01:09 AM   #46
willy_lee
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Quote:
Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
I'm not very well-versed in Daito Ryu so I hope people with more experience/knowledge will feel welcome to correct me, but I believe the "ikkajo no bu" (the "ikkajo" section) in Daito Ryu contains techniques that we in aikido would call ikkyo but also other "aikido" techniques like kotegaeshi and shihonage. Can anyone clarify/correct me on this?
I believe this is correct. I am no DR expert by any means but I do have Kondo sensei's book on the Hiden Mokuroku Ikkajo. I don't have it in front of me (don't want to wake up the baby) but ikkajo in this case means simply the first set of techniques learned.
Quote:
I also believe they use the terms "omote" and "ura" in a different manner (not referring to nage's location in the technique). Can anyone clarify/correct me on this, too?

-- Jun
I am not sure about this in the DR context but many (most?) koryu use "omote" and "ura" in the sense of not-hidden and hidden. Hm, those words don't seem to be quite right but I'm durned if I can think of better ones right now. I'm not explaining this very well, I'm afraid. In any case I am again no expert, just going by what I read in Karl Friday's book.

Wow, I am jumping in here into pretty deep waters, I'd better get out and towel off while I still can. Back to lurking!

=wl
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