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Old 02-17-2017, 12:28 PM   #26
GovernorSilver
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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Leonard Soetandi wrote: View Post

Ahhh I see... so in most cases running away and avoiding a fight is better than staying and fighting.
That would be part of my approach, even though I'm an inexperienced aikidoka.

My old Miyama Ryu Jujutsu teacher said the best self-defense is "don't be there!". Meaning, don't go to a place where you know you might get attacked. Here in DC in the summer time, that means do not walk (or ride your bicycle) into the middle of of a group of teenage boys after dusk.
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Old 02-17-2017, 03:17 PM   #27
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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Paolo Valladolid wrote: View Post
My old Miyama Ryu Jujutsu teacher said the best self-defense is "don't be there!".
I would like to be well understood. I understand by self-defense exclusively a respond to a direct attack. I think about the situation, when a man is in the wrong place at the wrong time. In these circumstances, the survival depends on fractions of a second. Thus, when I said that the art of O-Sensei let to end the fight before it had not started yet I thought about the fact that it is the only martial art in which there is no second chance. That is why a competition in this art doesn't make any sense. The reaction to an attack requires dodging and next the execution of a deadly technique. You need to be aware of this from the first contact with this unique martial art, which at this point allows you to make a choice - life or death.
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:22 PM   #28
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
I would like to be well understood. I understand by self-defense exclusively a respond to a direct attack. I think about the situation, when a man is in the wrong place at the wrong time. In these circumstances, the survival depends on fractions of a second. Thus, when I said that the art of O-Sensei let to end the fight before it had not started yet I thought about the fact that it is the only martial art in which there is no second chance. That is why a competition in this art doesn't make any sense. The reaction to an attack requires dodging and next the execution of a deadly technique. You need to be aware of this from the first contact with this unique martial art, which at this point allows you to make a choice - life or death.
Unfortunately, everyone that I know in this area who has been attacked on the street was taken by surprise, usually in the evening or later in warm weather. The victim was either suddenly surrounded and attacked, or attacked from an unexpected angle (like from behind). The attackers are usually bored teenagers on summer vacation.

A typical place to attack somebody is on board a Metro train car or on a bike trail where there's fencing on both sides so it's difficult for the victim to escape. This is where the "don't be there!" rule particularly applies. BTW, I had a coworker who was attacked by 8-10 teenagers on such a bike trail, while riding his bike home from work. He suffered broken ribs and damage to the bone around the eye. I've ridden that trail myself after work. I learned from his experience to simply turn around if I come across a group of young men after dark on that trail - the "don't be there" rule.

Craziest series of incidents was the kid who ran around hitting people on the head with a hammer. His attacks were completely random. I think he killed 4 people and seriously injured others before he was finally caught.

Last edited by GovernorSilver : 02-17-2017 at 09:29 PM.
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Old 02-18-2017, 02:29 AM   #29
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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Paolo Valladolid wrote: View Post
Unfortunately, everyone that I know in this area who has been attacked on the street was taken by surprise, .....
I appreciate your post but my comments do not concern the deepening of frustration. For many years I repeat, that the art of O-Sensei is a simple skill, based on trained reflexes. No one learns a foreign language, to talk to everyone. He uses it when the need arises. So many people spend years in the dojo to sustain any illusions instead of developing the precise only one response to each of nine potential directions of an attack. I am talking about only six techniques out of twelve for the selection. I know that this process is boring, therefore rather I recommend music as a background in place of varieties as Suwariwaza or weapon's training.
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Old 02-19-2017, 03:16 PM   #30
GovernorSilver
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
I appreciate your post but my comments do not concern the deepening of frustration.
That's good, because I am not experiencing a "deepening of frustration".

I started Aikido training with the full understanding that I will not have magical O-Sensei powers overnight.

Anyway, the OP seems satisfied with the answers to his question implied in the statement:

"running away and avoiding a fight is better than staying and fighting."
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Old 02-19-2017, 06:24 PM   #31
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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Paolo Valladolid wrote: View Post
Anyway, the OP seems satisfied with the answers to his question implied in the statement: "running away and avoiding a fight is better than staying and fighting."
Of course I agree with that but then what if you are not able to do that? As I mentioned, you'll find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time. And what next?

BTW. I do not believe in the magical power of O-Sensei. He just possessed certain skills at a certain time, because he knew what he wanted. This can not be said today about the majority of aikido practitioners.

Last edited by observer : 02-19-2017 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 02-19-2017, 07:05 PM   #32
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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Of course I agree with that but then what if you are not able to do that? As I mentioned, you'll find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time. And what next?
That is why we train, right? At least those of us who want to use Aikido for self-defense.

But you should also offer your thoughts to the OP, because he asked the question not me.

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Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
BTW. I do not believe in the magical power of O-Sensei.
Aikiweb humor.

Last edited by GovernorSilver : 02-19-2017 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 02-20-2017, 02:47 AM   #33
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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That is why we train, right? At least those of us who want to use Aikido for self-defense.
And that is the problem. I do not know of such a dojo in which aikido is practiced for self-defense. I agree with those who suggest that the opponent on the street do not usually know ukemi and in case of a sudden collapse will experience at least injury. This is unacceptable from the point of view of the law. That is why I suggest a return to the roots and to devote aikido training as repetitions of techniques to obtain a reflex response to the attack. All of the techniques should be performed in order to retain full control of the safe fall of the partner. There can not be two standards of performing techniques, that is, one with a partner in the dojo, and the second for intruders on the street.
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Old 02-20-2017, 08:42 AM   #34
leonagastya
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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I agree with those who suggest that the opponent on the street do not usually know ukemi and in case of a sudden collapse will experience at least injury
Like what my previous teachers have said before, to know that you have truly mastered Aikido is when you are able to practice it on someone new and prevent them from getting hurt. And I think that this philosophy should be brought into our daily practice as it will ensure that we will only bring the necessary amount of pain to neutralize our opponents. If I do not then I will hurt someone accidentally in the process. I accidentally did this after I hurt a new person's shoulder after getting her into a position to do mae ukemi and I guess these are the things we have to watch out for whenever we are being confronted with someone less experienced than us. So thank you for your opinionand comments on this thread as it helps reinforce my stance on this subject !
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Old 02-20-2017, 12:04 PM   #35
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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And that is the problem. I do not know of such a dojo in which aikido is practiced for self-defense.
Every aikido dojo I've seen teaches defense against wrist grabs, at least. You don't consider that to be self defense?
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Old 02-20-2017, 12:08 PM   #36
GovernorSilver
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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Leonard Soetandi wrote: View Post
Like what my previous teachers have said before, to know that you have truly mastered Aikido is when you are able to practice it on someone new and prevent them from getting hurt. And I think that this philosophy should be brought into our daily practice as it will ensure that we will only bring the necessary amount of pain to neutralize our opponents. If I do not then I will hurt someone accidentally in the process. I accidentally did this after I hurt a new person's shoulder after getting her into a position to do mae ukemi and I guess these are the things we have to watch out for whenever we are being confronted with someone less experienced than us. So thank you for your opinionand comments on this thread as it helps reinforce my stance on this subject !
Now that the experienced aikidoka have said that defending yourself using Aikido, without hurting your attacker, is more of an ideal than a realistic possibility, will you continue Aikido or will you quit studying it?

Sorry about the injury to your uke. That's something I think about too. In training, I concentrate more on trying to get the movement right and moving with whole-body structure, than trying to do the waza with speed and power. Even with that, I still get told once in a while to ease up.
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Old 02-20-2017, 12:59 PM   #37
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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Paolo Valladolid wrote: View Post
Every aikido dojo I've seen teaches defense against wrist grabs, at least. You don't consider that to be self defense?
I think that I am neither taller nor heavier or stronger than you. But believe me, if in the dojo I grab your wrist, you will not be able to perform any aikido's technique. What you learn today in dojo, it is not self-defense. This is just an illusion of self-defense.
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Old 02-20-2017, 01:22 PM   #38
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
I think that I am neither taller nor heavier or stronger than you. But believe me, if in the dojo I grab your wrist, you will not be able to perform any aikido's technique. What you learn today in dojo, it is not self-defense. This is just an illusion of self-defense.
Harumph. Not sure what is limited here.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-20-2017, 01:27 PM   #39
GovernorSilver
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
I think that I am neither taller nor heavier or stronger than you. But believe me, if in the dojo I grab your wrist, you will not be able to perform any aikido's technique. What you learn today in dojo, it is not self-defense. This is just an illusion of self-defense.
I will be happy to try, in the spirit of friendly Aikido training. Let me know when you come to the DC area. I will let you know the same when I get out to your part of California.

I was shorter/lighter than most of the attendees at the Ikeda/Ledyard weekend seminar that I just attended. At first, most of us uke easily moved for our nage. When we realized Ikeda-sensei wanted more resistance ("when you connect yourself and make line, partner goes. He doesn't need to fall for you") things got more fun and interesting. By the end of the seminar, we were all moving whoever grabbed us, even me, with two guys grabbing my arm as hard as they can. As a smaller guy, ikkyo movement is one of my best friends against the wrist grab.

Experienced aikidoka will probably correct me or whatever, but I find wrist grab defense to be legitimate self-defense. If an attacker grabs my wrist with one hand he is likely setting me up for a punch with the other hand. If the attacker grabs a woman's wrist, he is likely intending to do the same thing, plus something much worse. We sometimes practice in the dojo with uke grabbing nage's wrist then punching nage's face, so nage has to guard with the free hand.

One of the real-life attacks on me was a double-hand wrist grab by a drunk guy who wanted to pull me into a mosh pit. If you know what a mosh pit is, you know why not everybody wants to jump into it. Unfortunately I didn't practice martial arts at the time so it ended up being a muscular pulling contest that I lost, and then I had to run as soon as he released his grip. In another scenario, my attacker could have pulled me with a double-hand grab into a group of his friends waiting to pounce on me. So defense against double-hand grab on the wrist is also quite useful.

I've been told other reasons we practice w/ wrist grabs, but it's beyond my experience level. The experienced aikidoka can explain this much better than me.

Last edited by GovernorSilver : 02-20-2017 at 01:35 PM.
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Old 02-20-2017, 02:00 PM   #40
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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As a smaller guy, ikkyo movement is one of my best friends against the wrist grab.
To clarify, ikkyo is my friend when I do it right. That means letting the arms relax, letting my weight get under the weight of my uke(s) by sinking my hips if necessary, etc. etc etc. If possible, try to let uke's force travel through the body down to the foot by relaxing the upper body - this makes everything easier.

Of course I would prefer to meet whoever at either my dojo or his/hers to just playing somewhere "off mat", because I suck at Aikido and my sempai/sensei would do a far, far better job of sharing our expression of Aikido.

Last edited by GovernorSilver : 02-20-2017 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 02-20-2017, 02:06 PM   #41
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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Paolo Valladolid wrote: View Post
The experienced aikidoka can explain this much better than me.
I think that I belong to such and clearly stated my point of view on this.
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Old 02-20-2017, 02:28 PM   #42
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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I think that I belong to such and clearly stated my point of view on this.
Thank you. I will read after training. It's almost time for me to get ready to go to Aikido classes today.
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Old 02-20-2017, 02:30 PM   #43
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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Paolo Valladolid wrote: View Post
.. I find wrist grab defense to be legitimate self-defense.
Sure it is.

But be careful, not every aikido technique where uke goes for the wrist grab is a viable self defense technique.
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Old 02-20-2017, 10:22 PM   #44
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Sure it is.

But be careful, not every aikido technique where uke goes for the wrist grab is a viable self defense technique.
Thank you. It has been quite educational to see/hear what more experienced aikidoka think is viable waza to use. I recently saw the vid in which one showed 3 waza he would never use as a bouncer, and explained his opinions.
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Old 02-21-2017, 05:45 AM   #45
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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Paolo Valladolid wrote: View Post
I recently saw the vid in which one showed 3 waza he would never use as a bouncer, and explained his opinions.
Do you have the link at hand?
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Old 02-21-2017, 06:00 AM   #46
leonagastya
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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Now that the experienced aikidoka have said that defending yourself using Aikido, without hurting your attacker, is more of an ideal than a realistic possibility, will you continue Aikido or will you quit studying it?
I will continue doing Aikido with this mindset in hand as I still love the martial art. I am grateful for all of you that changed my mindset as the previous one might hurt my ability to defend myself if a fight breaks out.
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Old 02-21-2017, 08:25 AM   #47
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
I think that I belong to such and clearly stated my point of view on this.
My view on that post has not changed either (Wow) but re-reading it the only thing that comes to mind is "What are the 12 techniques unique to aikido?". I personally can not think of one.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-21-2017, 09:28 AM   #48
GovernorSilver
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Do you have the link at hand?
I can't find it anymore. It was one of the videos on the Aikidoflow channel. That Azu is an entertaining fellow.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClh...BFUo4gg/videos

Oh, it's this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPGNyN4iFco

Last edited by GovernorSilver : 02-21-2017 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 02-21-2017, 09:33 AM   #49
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
My view on that post has not changed either (Wow) but re-reading it the only thing that comes to mind is "What are the 12 techniques unique to aikido?". I personally can not think of one.
Here they are:
Ikkyo,
Nikyo,
Sankyo,
Yonkyo,
Irimi-nage,
Shiho-nage,
Kote-gaeshi,
Tenchi-nage,
Udekime-nage,
Kaiten-nage,
Juji-nage,
Koshi-nage.

It is no wonder that you do not perceive them as unique. Currently, they have been modified so that they can not be implemented without cooperation of the partner. Indeed, all of these techniques may be performed without taking your partner out of balance. Just make him climb up on his toes. This is the purpose of pins in the performance of some of them. Not in order to cause a pain, but in order to let him avoid it.
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Old 02-21-2017, 10:01 AM   #50
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Do we inadvertently hurt people in Aikido?

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Paolo Valladolid wrote: View Post
I can't find it anymore. It was one of the videos on the Aikidoflow channel. That Azu is an entertaining fellow.
Thanks.

Funny fact: the most awesome juji nage done to me was by a rookie cop drilling gun retention from low ready stance.
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