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Old 12-22-2010, 08:08 PM   #601
Anthony Loeppert
Dojo: Aikido of Del Mar
Location: San Diego, CA
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 155
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Michael Wilson wrote: View Post
Interesting article but it doesnt explain how they got her 1 inch of the ground and then couldnt go further (in the case I saw).
Whether 1 inch or 10 inches (that detail would be a constant in the equation which becomes irrelevant) on the vertical dimension, it doesn't matter because the math essentially pits each lifter against each other (x axis) detracting from lifting the target up (y-axis).

I'm assuming (1inch or X inches) this is the explanation for the demonstrations I've seen on youtube where individuals are lifted to chest level or higher and then suddenly they get heavy....

The "trick" is redirecting the 'lifters' (y-axis) into 'pushers' against each other (x-axis), decreasing the upward vector.

Again, I've not done this (the lift test), but vector math is vector math... if I'm wrong I'll gladly accept that assuming a contradictory proof.

Just because haven't or can't do it, doesn't mean when I witness it, it must be magic.
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Old 12-22-2010, 08:21 PM   #602
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
Whether 1 inch or 10 inches (that detail would be a constant in the equation which becomes irrelevant) on the vertical dimension, it doesn't matter because the math essentially pits each lifter against each other (x axis) detracting from lifting the target up (y-axis).

I'm assuming (1inch or X inches) this is the explanation for the demonstrations I've seen on youtube where individuals are lifted to chest level or higher and then suddenly they get heavy....

The "trick" is redirecting the 'lifters' (y-axis) into 'pushers' against each other (x-axis), decreasing the upward vector.

Again, I've not done this (the lift test), but vector math is vector math... if I'm wrong I'll gladly accept that assuming a contradictory proof.

Just because haven't or can't do it, doesn't mean when I witness it, it must be magic.
I think the math is correct for that solution to the problem, but the problem can be different than that. For instance, sometimes the demonstration is done with one person being the lifter, sometimes 3 or 4 or more are used to lift, so the vector analysis shifts. It's like the "unbendable arm" demonstration... there are a number of scenarios which prove to be difficult for Uke to bend the arm, but not all of the scenarios relate to the basic situation which, for example, Tohei was pointing at. So a solution can be correct while still not being correct, if you see what I mean.

How would you describe (math or verbally) the situation of "hard to lift" that Tohei shows/demos with one person lifting up on one arm of Tohei's hanging by his side? Surely the principle that Tohei is demonstrating is the same "heavy side down" that the lift by 2 Uke's is attempting to show, so the mathematical implications should be similar/same, right?

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-22-2010, 09:01 PM   #603
ravenest
Dojo: Way of Falling Water
Location: NSW
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 65
Australia
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
Whether 1 inch or 10 inches (that detail would be a constant in the equation which becomes irrelevant) on the vertical dimension, it doesn't matter because the math essentially pits each lifter against each other (x axis) detracting from lifting the target up (y-axis).

I'm assuming (1inch or X inches) this is the explanation for the demonstrations I've seen on youtube where individuals are lifted to chest level or higher and then suddenly they get heavy....

The "trick" is redirecting the 'lifters' (y-axis) into 'pushers' against each other (x-axis), decreasing the upward vector.

Again, I've not done this (the lift test), but vector math is vector math... if I'm wrong I'll gladly accept that assuming a contradictory proof.

Just because haven't or can't do it, doesn't mean when I witness it, it must be magic.
No, it doesnt have to be 'magic'. I still have difficulty nutting it out though. Would it be a subtle change in the set and angle of the arms that redirects the force? And this changes in relation to the lifters as height increases? ... something like that.

This girl must have had some unconcious instinctual response that made it happen that way?

Anyway, a good trick ... as the next day there was about 60 people turning up for Aikido ....
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Old 12-22-2010, 11:31 PM   #604
Anthony Loeppert
Dojo: Aikido of Del Mar
Location: San Diego, CA
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
How would you describe (math or verbally) the situation of "hard to lift" that Tohei shows/demos with one person lifting up on one arm of Tohei's hanging by his side?
I'm not sure I understand the scenario here. I did a quick search on youtube, on the off chance something might pop to clarify, of "Tohei lift" but nothing came up.

Do you mean there is no lifter on the other side (i.e. one lifter) so there would be no one to push against? Or do you mean, two (or more) lifters but one arm of the "liftee" is kept parallel to the body - not allowing any angle to redirect?

I'm curious what you mean, but I don't guaranty I'll be able to explain.
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Old 12-23-2010, 05:03 AM   #605
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,220
United Kingdom
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
Whether 1 inch or 10 inches (that detail would be a constant in the equation which becomes irrelevant) on the vertical dimension, it doesn't matter because the math essentially pits each lifter against each other (x axis) detracting from lifting the target up (y-axis).

I'm assuming (1inch or X inches) this is the explanation for the demonstrations I've seen on youtube where individuals are lifted to chest level or higher and then suddenly they get heavy....

The "trick" is redirecting the 'lifters' (y-axis) into 'pushers' against each other (x-axis), decreasing the upward vector.

Again, I've not done this (the lift test), but vector math is vector math... if I'm wrong I'll gladly accept that assuming a contradictory proof.

Just because haven't or can't do it, doesn't mean when I witness it, it must be magic.
Hi Anthony,

physics and maths can be applied to just about everything that happens in aikido, as there is absolutely no magic in any of it.

Personally, although I am a fan of science and rational explanation, within the dojo I am much more interested in can you do it or can't you do it and if not, how do you?

Why not find someone who can, they can teach you in a matter of minutes (although like most things, can take a while to get to a decent level of competence). All of the unraiseable body exercises (as that's all they are, I dislike the term 'tricks') can be learnt quite quickly. Whether being lifted by 1, 2 or more people, 1 side or both sides, the mind/body co-ordination aim is the same. While physics and maths will be able to adequately describe the body mechanics of these exercises, they will have a harder time describing the mental state of the liftee.

These exercises can get quite complex and harder to describe rationally, but it must be able to be done, as magic is for the story books. For instance (as you mention you've seen), it is possible to be lifted up by 2 lifters, one on either wrist, with your feet a foot or two off the ground. You would think that the lifters would have complete control over the one in the air. Not so, it is possible to direct them, from your lofty vantage point, either forward, backwards, left or right, clockwise or anticlockwise and when you want to come back down to the floor, you can, it's odd to see and it's fun to do.

I'd be searching for how can I get to do that before I search for how do I explain that.

Anyway good luck in your quest.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 12-23-2010, 02:50 PM   #606
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Unrealistic training or training that is not practical for real situations, is always high on the list.
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Old 12-23-2010, 03:13 PM   #607
Phil Van Treese
Dojo: Tampa Judo and Aikido Dojo, Tampa, Fl
Location: Tampa, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Fear of the unknown. Those who "hate" aikido probably have never studied it. Therefore, they know nothing about it so, rather than "investigate" aikido or even tyry to understand it, it's a lot easier to "hate" it for whatever "reason" they can come up with. "It doesn't work" is what I hear all the time!!! That's garbage because I have used it in Viet Nam. If it didn't "work", I wouldn't be here now!!!!
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Old 12-23-2010, 03:45 PM   #608
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
Do you mean there is no lifter on the other side (i.e. one lifter) so there would be no one to push against?
Yes. I can't point you offhand to some videos showing the one-arm (his arm) lifting up his one side (I think there may be a picture of it in the book "This is Aikido", IIRC), but it may be somewhere on YouTube. All I'm saying is that it is just a variant of the "unliftable" demonstration and it may point you more accurately at the essence of the down-weighting jin/kokyu. What I'm saying is that while your vector-analysis may be correct for the problem that you've envisioned, you may be slightly off the exact idea of what the trick is supposed to be about. And it's a problem that can be more complex than that, but I'll leave you to figure it out. Some of the old Shioda videos show him doing a variant of the trick which you might find enjoyably enlightening.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-29-2010, 01:31 AM   #609
Lyle Bogin
Dojo: Shin Budo Kai
Location: Manhattan
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 588
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

I think the fact that so many people involved in martial arts hate aikido speaks to its depth. Haters gonna hate. Imma keep on shinin'!

"The martial arts progress from the complex to the simple."
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Old 12-29-2010, 05:29 AM   #610
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

I would like to end this thread and say I'm tired of the bullshit that manifests itself from so called aikidoka that have never been in a confrontation in their lives, or are never likely to, because of their inadequacy to know what is or isn't... They will never know so it will not matter until they are caught out!!...... But still prefer to hide behind the inherent bullshit that manifests itself to this very day,hour and minute.....
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Old 01-13-2017, 10:09 PM   #611
memmek10k
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 6
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
Chocolate chip cookies. Who can possibly hate them?
I do. I like oatmeal and m&m better.
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Old 01-16-2017, 10:13 AM   #612
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,164
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Matthew Kuba wrote: View Post
I do. I like oatmeal and m&m better.
Do you also like brains? Because this is a zombie thread, over 10 years old.
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