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Old 12-12-2016, 11:50 PM   #1
aikistudent
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Black belt tried to attack me for doing the technique "wrong".

So, just to clarify first, Im a very respectul 4th kyu, I always try my best not to hurt my partner when executing the techniques but also while maintaining the technique done correctly, I always try my best to help those in need (specially those that are new and dont know how to do the techniques) whith a humble manner, and whith black belts I always take advice in a respectful way, and always thanking for any advice given,
Ok so to start, today I went into the dojo, everything fine, did a few techniques(most of them Kokyu Nage), and everything was fine, I did the techniques with mostly black belts that corrected me some minor mistakes, I took the advice as always and said thanks to those that provided it to me, at the final technique we were going to do riotetori kokyu Nage, a black belt that I hadnt seen before aproached me and asked me to be his partern, we did the greeting, and proceeded to practice, at first everything seemed cool, but as our turns passed the black belt became more and more imperative, first he "corrected" me that I was doing the technique too slow, I told him "ok", but he seemed a little upset didnt know why, so we continued, and in that day we were overcrowded at the dojo, so in one of his turns when he applied to me, I stopped and didnt move, he asked me why ,and I told him I was just a little afraid to crashing against a near by pair of aikidokas, whe got angry and told me, "theres nobody at the side!" which was "true" because the pair had moved because they saw that I didnt flow because of them being there, I just told the black belt again "ok", he got even more mad, starting "correcting" me again, but this time almost yelling and looking at my eyes in a very threatening way, I started to get worried, I dont like fighting, and much less in my own dojo, its like my sacred place where I learn new things, but anyways the black belt kept his angry mood and at last he told me "If you do it wrong again I'll attack you like a black belt", I thought that he was just going to get a little bit rough on the kokyu nage, so I did "wrong" the technique and instantly he grabbed my arm, and tried to apply nikkyo, it was all too fast, but I saw his intentions in those moments, he wasnt going to just throw me to the matt, that was a move to try to break my arm!, so I didnt give in, took my arm out and pushed the black belt away, he instantly turned around and looked at me very pissed of,I was afraid, I've fought before but only in self defense I dont like fighting and like I said before much less in my dojo, so again to continue, this guy(the black belt) seemed like he was going to try to attack me once again, I was ready to punch him(I didnt want to) because I knew now that he was really trying to hurt me, luckily my sensei came and told us what was happening, I told him that the black belt was trying to attack me, my sensei just looked worried and made us change pairs, I am a very calm person, I hate fighting, but I dont like being disrespected, and I must admit Im mad just writing this, but to continue, we changed pairs, ended the class, and we greeted each other at the end as always, except this guy didnt did the greeting to me, I told him "You didnt greeted me", he said "sorry" whith a malevolant smile, so we shook hands and ended the class, at the end I asked my sensei to talk, and told him what had happened, and that I was pissed of. How can a black belt which is supposed not only to know aikido but to self control himself tried to attack me?, also I got mad because I didnt responded, I had the crazy idea of telling the black belt outside of the dojo to go and fight on a nearby abandoned terrain, but I didnt do it because I had mmy jiujitsu class coming up, tomorrow I have my class again, and this guy is probably going to come again, I feel so disrespected and specially because I always treat others the way I want to be treated and this guy just comes and attacks me being a black belt? come on, whats wrong with him. So now I have mixed emotions, I want to hurt him, I know thats not the phylosophy of aikido but I dont know I just feel so agraviated, this guy was trying to fight me forreal, and I didnt do nothing except pushing him aside, which was just self defense .I want to kick this guys ass, but at the same time I wish this had just not happened, my sensei did nothing but to tell me to calm down which I had already done, when Im angry I dont look like it, because I dont want to cause a scene, so anyways what should I do know, I feel threatened and have the urge to put this guy in place, Im just 18 years old but feel this is so wrong, this black belt is like 40years old like 5'4 tall and tries to humiliate me? just because in his eyes I did the technique "wrong", I know as a fact that I can put him in place if necessary, the real question is, WHAT should I do? I feel disrespected but also I'd prefer to never been put into this situation.
Thanks everyone for reading me, I'll try me best to do whats right.
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Old 12-13-2016, 12:32 AM   #2
Janet Rosen
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Re: Black belt tried to attack me for doing the technique "wrong".

Oh my. Here's my take on it: NOBODY has the right to abuse anybody, in or out of the dojo. You were 100% right to go to your sensei and report it promptly. It is the chief instructor's responsibility to set the tone for the dojo and to make it a safe place for practice.
I can tell you what I would do - and I'm speaking as a 61 year old woman, but I'd have done this when I was about your age too, had I been doing aikido! - I would NEVER train with this person again. If he tried to bow in to me, I would LOUDLY say, "I will not train with you because you tried to hurt me for no reason." And find another partner; if need be in a group of three, or even sit it out.
Attempting to retaliate just puts you on his level. You can be better than that.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 12-13-2016, 12:32 AM   #3
aikistudent
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Re: Black belt tried to attack me for doing the technique "wrong".

.[/quote]

Sorry for grammar errors, I was just too mad to think about witting correctly.
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Old 12-13-2016, 12:34 AM   #4
aikistudent
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Re: Black belt tried to attack me for doing the technique "wrong".

Thanks for reading! your words are wise, not go down to his level.
Still Im impressed, how can this guy be a black belt?
Anyways I deeply thank you for reading me this happened hours ago and Im still kinda furious trying to stay calm and keep my mind clear
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Old 12-13-2016, 07:01 AM   #5
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Black belt tried to attack me for doing the technique "wrong".

Quote:
Benjamin Aldape wrote: View Post
Still Im impressed, how can this guy be a black belt?
- Unaware of his surroundings.
- Can't move a 4th kyu at will.
- Can't pull a nikkyo on a 4th kyu.

I'm also wondering why this guy is a black belt.

Quote:
the real question is, WHAT should I do?
Well, you alread did what you did. The question is moot.
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Old 12-13-2016, 07:58 AM   #6
lbb
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Re: Black belt tried to attack me for doing the technique "wrong".

Quote:
Benjamin Aldape wrote: View Post
my sensei did nothing but to tell me to calm down which I had already done
Really? And yet you wrote this long post in which you're clearly upset? Are you sure you'd "calmed down"?

Quote:
Benjamin Aldape wrote: View Post
so anyways what should I do know, I feel threatened and have the urge to put this guy in place, Im just 18 years old but feel this is so wrong, this black belt is like 40years old like 5'4 tall and tries to humiliate me? just because in his eyes I did the technique "wrong", I know as a fact that I can put him in place if necessary, the real question is, WHAT should I do? I feel disrespected but also I'd prefer to never been put into this situation.
What should you do about what? If you're talking about your safety, that's pretty straightforward: don't train with this guy. If you're talking about your conflicted feelings about being humiliated and disrespected and what a black belt is supposed to do/be, you'll have to work that out for yourself -- they're your feelings. My personal take on it is that this is a waste of time. You do not control what others think of you, nor how they respond to you; therefore, you cannot stop someone from "disrespecting" you. Your feelings of humiliation are based on your own ideas of what it means to be respected; again, you're externalizing, reacting to what others think and feel, and you don't control that. But I also understand that you can't just snap your fingers and change how you feel about it; that will take time and perspective. So just get some distance from it. Take a few days off from the dojo if you want; remind yourself that you don't have to train with this guy when you return. In the meanwhile, stop making it worse by retelling yourself this story; you'll just keep stressing every bad word and action and making it bigger and bigger in your own mind. It was a bad experience, but don't make it bigger and badder than it really was. Try to let it go rather than clinging to it; clinging to a bad experience only hurts you.

As for how a black belt should behave, I have some distressing news for you: yudansha are human too. A black belt is not a magical tonic for character flaws. You have perhaps been very fortunate in having trained with yudansha who were very generous and patient; now you've met one who wasn't. Yudansha are human, and you should never expect any human to be free of flaws and error. So maybe this particular yudansha is not a good partner, or not a good partner for you: that's fine, so move on and don't train with him. But don't expect the Ueshiba Black Belt Quality Control Board to descend from the clouds to take his black belt back, and don't expect that every yudansha you train with will be a saint.

NOTE: if all that sounds unsympathetic, it's not. But you asked, "What do I do?" It's more a matter of what you CAN do. You CAN NOT control others' thoughts and attitudes, you can only control your own. You have very limited control over others' actions; you can only control your own. I understand that after an experience in which you feel wronged, you naturally wish for the other party to change, and to experience consequences -- but you can't make that happen. What you CAN do, what's actually in your power, are changes in YOU, not in other people. And those changes will bring you peace: not immediately, perhaps, but they will.
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Old 12-13-2016, 09:30 AM   #7
hunglea
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Re: Black belt tried to attack me for doing the technique "wrong".

Is your dojo having a seminar and this black belt is in attendance, or is he a visiting aikidoka? If he is visiting, then tell your instructor the entire story and your Sensei will probably give him the boot out of the dojo. If the black belt is doing that to you, he is also doing it to other people possibly injuring them. Among all of the other warning signs, the "If you do it wrong again I'll attack you like a black belt" clearly shows arrogance and his lack of knowledge. What a joke. What's a "black belt" attack? Magical black belt attack that will break your arm in a voluntary and cooperative learning environment? Aikido is better than this, above this. The only thing you will learn from this guy is to stay away from people like him in the future - that's a good thing. Abusive people in the dojo are real, there should be no tolerance for such things.

Is he a member at your dojo? Then, your instructor should really have a heart to heart with him.

A black belt means absolutely nothing. This guy is not your instructor or sensei just because he has a black belt or varying degrees. Don't put people on a pedestal just because they have rank. Protect yourself, communicate your concerns with your instructor like you have been doing, and don't deliberately try to tangle with this guy anymore. Stay away from him, don't work with him.
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Old 12-13-2016, 10:10 AM   #8
aikistudent
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Re: Black belt tried to attack me for doing the technique "wrong".

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Really? And yet you wrote this long post in which you're clearly upset? Are you sure you'd "calmed down"?

.
I was upset while writing this long post, I didnt look angry when talking to my sensei, I was upset but didnt show it, as I said before on my post when Im angry I hide it so that I dont cause a scene, when talking to my sensei I was talking slow and wanting to let him know what had happened, the reason he told me to "calm down" was because he simply wanted me to let go the problem, which I didnt want to do because this was serious, I was being harmed by a black belt.

Last edited by aikistudent : 12-13-2016 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 12-13-2016, 10:18 AM   #9
aikistudent
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Re: Black belt tried to attack me for doing the technique "wrong".

Quote:
Hung Le wrote: View Post
Is your dojo having a seminar and this black belt is in attendance, or is he a visiting aikidoka?

Is he a member at your dojo? Then, your instructor should really have a heart to heart with him.

A black belt means absolutely nothing. This guy is not your instructor or sensei just because he has a black belt or varying degrees. Don't put people on a pedestal just because they have rank. Protect yourself, communicate your concerns with your instructor like you have been doing, and don't deliberately try to tangle with this guy anymore. Stay away from him, don't work with him.
He is a visiting aikidoka, and I dont know if hes really a member because most(not all) black belts tend to not go to class very often.
I totally agree with you being a black belt means nothing, thanks for the advice!
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Old 12-13-2016, 10:25 AM   #10
lbb
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Re: Black belt tried to attack me for doing the technique "wrong".

Quote:
Benjamin Aldape wrote: View Post
I was upset while writing this long post, I didnt look angry when talking to my sensei, I was upset but didnt show it, as I said before on my post when Im angry I hide it so that I dont cause a scene, when talking to my sensei I was talking slow and wanting to let him know what had happened, the reason he told me to "calm down" was because he simply wanted me to let go the problem, which I didnt want to do because this was serious, I was being harmed by a black belt.
I don't want to minimize what happened, but from your story, it sounds like you weren't harmed -- not physically, at least. Arguably, this guy tried to harm you, but he didn't succeed. So, the problem isn't that you've now got an injury you have to deal with -- the problem is that you fear training with this guy could lead to injury. The problem has a solution: don't train with him. You have that right. Exercise that right, and the problem's solved, and you can put it behind you.
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Old 12-13-2016, 01:42 PM   #11
PeterR
 
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Re: Black belt tried to attack me for doing the technique "wrong".

Quote:
Benjamin Aldape wrote: View Post
He is a visiting aikidoka, and I dont know if hes really a member because most(not all) black belts tend to not go to class very often.
I totally agree with you being a black belt means nothing, thanks for the advice!
Well if he is a visitor that is interesting. Hard to believe any dan grade visitor to a dojo would behave like that to kyu level students - and if so get away with it.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-13-2016, 03:42 PM   #12
lbb
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Re: Black belt tried to attack me for doing the technique "wrong".

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Well if he is a visitor that is interesting. Hard to believe any dan grade visitor to a dojo would behave like that to kyu level students - and if so get away with it.
I have seen it attempted, sort of - an individual who came to our dojo as a visitor, didn't know anyone, paired off with a 5th dan and proceeded to "teach" her how to do ikkyo, then with me (I think I was 3rd or maybe 2nd kyu at that point) and proceeded to do "lean on the back of the shoulder, mat-slamming ikkyo". I was able to take ukemi safely, although I have to say, it was pretty far from a learning experience for me. Then Sensei called him up to demonstrate the next technique, guy took advantage of the fact that Sensei was demonstrating, tracked him with his strike, and made contact. And then, well, let's just say that a lesson in how to take ukemi was delivered. It took everyone a while to get their eyeballs back inside their heads, this guy most of all.

I've since learned that, while Sensei always seems to have eyes in the back of his head, that goes double for situations where a stranger comes into the dojo with previous training experience -- and the higher the (claimed) grade, the closer they're watched. They work with a senior first, and they are very carefully watched.
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Old 12-13-2016, 04:04 PM   #13
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Re: Black belt tried to attack me for doing the technique "wrong".

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I've since learned that, while Sensei always seems to have eyes in the back of his head, that goes double for situations where a stranger comes into the dojo with previous training experience -- and the higher the (claimed) grade, the closer they're watched. They work with a senior first, and they are very carefully watched.
That would be what I expect - certainly reflects my attitude. Call it my inner mother hen but I know each student's weaknesses and want to be sure even the best intentioned visitor is on the same page. This is why I was surprised by the drama.

The story is already somewhere on aikiweb but years ago when I started my first group in Quebec I had one visitor attempt to elbow me in the face. Other challenges followed over the years but never so intense This type does exist but strangers bullying kyu grades and getting away with it is a rarity. If it happened there were failures all round.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-14-2016, 07:14 AM   #14
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Black belt tried to attack me for doing the technique "wrong".

Quote:
Benjamin Aldape wrote: View Post
He is a visiting aikidoka,
The ancient art of passive-agressive dojo yaburi.
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Old 12-14-2016, 07:29 AM   #15
MrIggy
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Re: Black belt tried to attack me for doing the technique "wrong".

Quote:
Benjamin Aldape wrote: View Post
I'll attack you like a black belt"
I wish i could meet this "black belt", it would be most interesting. As for you, cool off, go punch a heavy bag, or focus mints, and take all that stress out. Afterwards go put on some easy music to soothe your nerves.

If you ever see this man again, ignore him completely. If by chance you end up working with him, you maybe thrown into a small group with him at a seminar or joint training at another dojo or whatever circumstance, and he try's to pull some stunt immediately call your Sensei. It's easy to get pissed off by runts like him but the key is to stay calm in any situation, especially inside the dojo. I had several situations where i would get pissed of by some people and would most gladly resolve it in another matter. The reality is, they ain't worth it. Build up your character to a point where such situation are only trivial to your mind, trust me it's also good for your life outside of the dojo. Off course if he would seriously attack you, "as a black belt", to hurt you in some manner i will remind you that you also train a martial art so make your answer meritable.

Last edited by MrIggy : 12-14-2016 at 07:41 AM.
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Old 12-14-2016, 12:41 PM   #16
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Re: Black belt tried to attack me for doing the technique "wrong".

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
I wish i could meet this "black belt", it would be most interesting. As for you, cool off, go punch a heavy bag, or focus mints, and take all that stress out. Afterwards go put on some easy music to soothe your nerves.
Thats exactly what I should do, thanks for the advice, specially the heavybag
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Old 12-15-2016, 08:18 AM   #17
Susan Dalton
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Re: Black belt tried to attack me for doing the technique "wrong".

I'm sorry that happened. You're getting really good advice here.
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Old 12-16-2016, 06:59 AM   #18
rugwithlegs
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Re: Black belt tried to attack me for doing the technique "wrong".

Quote:
Benjamin Aldape wrote: View Post
?.. "If you do it wrong again I'll attack you like a black belt", I thought that he was just going to get a little bit rough on the kokyu nage, so I did "wrong" the technique ...I want to hurt him, I know thats not the phylosophy of aikido...my sensei did nothing but to tell me to calm down,
There is a lot to unpack here. I do have to ask if English is a second language for you? It can lead to misunderstandings on the mat, but also misunderstandings when I read what you wrote.

The one sentence above, it reads like you were asked/corrected about doing something repeatedly, and when he said he was going to "be a black belt" (stupid choice of words), you deliberately acted how you had been asked not to. I know beginners can get curious, but best to not explore that with a complete stranger, and not when you think they are already getting triggered. I will explore and test with good friends who are in a happy mood. Again, your choice of words is what I am going by and maybe this isn't really what you mean to say. But always a good idea to follow the sensei instead of testing each other, especially as a beginner.

The philosophy of aikido is murky and not across the board as Mary says. Interpretations are not consistent. You and everyone else in the world will get angry from time to time. Can we avoid getting angry is a big important part of life. For example, I did practice a lot of arm breaking movements coming up, it was fun and safe and we looked after each other. Other dojo do not do this.

There was quite a bit of anger at your sensei for not being more loudly and publicly on your side? Again, I am reluctant to interpret that because this doesn't seem to be your primary language and maybe this is not what you meant. But, working quietly can be better for the dojo. You got angry and scared, but I understand you were never harmed by this man who was older and trained for longer than you?

You're leaving high school now. I left high school to work in a jail. How I proceeded was about me, not about them - of course they didn't act well all the time, of course they didn't do right. There was no more principal's office, no referees and no one to blow a whistle. It's a hard transition.

I have a student I need to meet with this morning. He is always doing stuff wrong - no quotes, it can be a real thing. He likes to fight against kaitenage by standing tall or leaning back, and gets scared when I switch to shihonage or iriminage instead. Or, sucks in his arm on shihonage and then is surprised when I go for his head. I do tell him when he makes one thing impossible, another gets very easy. This is a real and important lesson, and I hope to get it through to this black belt candidate soon! Aiki is about fitting together, not me trying to make something work when I shouldn't.

Keeping your distance from a stranger you may never see again is a good thing.

You cannot control this guy, so I am looking at things that you can control. Otherwise, there is no way to have a better outcome next time.

Last edited by rugwithlegs : 12-16-2016 at 07:02 AM. Reason: Add
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Old 12-16-2016, 11:17 PM   #19
aikistudent
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Re: Black belt tried to attack me for doing the technique "wrong".

[quote=I hope to get it through to this black belt candidate soon! Aiki is about fitting together, not me trying to make something work when I shouldn't.

Keeping your distance from a stranger you may never see again is a good thing.

You cannot control this guy, so I am looking at things that you can control. Otherwise, there is no way to have a better outcome next time.[/QUOTE]
Thanks John!, I really like your reply, and yes english is not my first language haha, but yeah I'll keep calm and just forget about this situation, I'll use this to become a better person.
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Old 12-17-2016, 08:01 AM   #20
rugwithlegs
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Re: Black belt tried to attack me for doing the technique "wrong".

Glad to hear it! Enjoy your practice.
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Old 12-27-2016, 05:15 AM   #21
erikmenzel
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Re: Black belt tried to attack me for doing the technique "wrong".

I am just gonna offer my 2c.

I am not a native speaker of English so the barriers in language might add up to total confusion but I hope they don't.

There are several things I notice in your posts that I will describe in my own way. (Note that this is not meant as an attack in anyway, but is just meant as food for thoughts).

- The dojo is a safe place for you and then suddenly this foreign black-belt comes and acts and moves differently than you would like. My thought is that inside your comfort-zone your growth will be limited.

- He is a black-belt. My thought is "so what"? Black-belts aren't special, they don't have superieur technique, nor do they have superieur attitude. What if he wasn't a black-belt? Would you shrug it off? Would you not listen?

- He says he is going to attack like a black-belt. My thought is that I don't know how to not attack like a black-belt. Again, people act and think on their own level and the color of a piece of garment is not the right indicator for that. You can only train like you are.

- You tell explicitly you weren't acting wrongly in any way. My thought is that I haven't been in any rough situations yet where I wasn't part of the problem as well. It is so easy to claim the moral high ground without reflecting on ones own contribution to the situation.

It is no use trying to be right, or to prove the other wrong. Almost in every training dispute I have observed in the dojo there were two at fault.

Just train, train well and keep on training well.
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Old 12-27-2016, 05:30 AM   #22
philipsmith
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Re: Black belt tried to attack me for doing the technique "wrong".

I think the simple truth is some people are assholes no matter what the situation. Sounds like the "black belt" didn't like being "challenged" by a lower grade (quotation marks are deliberate) and felt he should stamp his authority - which he failed to do.

I've had this happen both from visitors to my dojo and when visiting other dojos (I never disclose my grade before practice). Use it as a learning experience so you don't become that guy yourself.
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Old 12-27-2016, 07:04 AM   #23
Phil Van Treese
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Re: Black belt tried to attack me for doing the technique "wrong".

This yudansha sounds as if he is missing a few cards in the deck. I have dealt with some people like that and the best thing to do is to hit him where it hurts---his ego. Ignore him and don't respond to him in any way. He can't argue or do anything unless there is someone there to butt heads with.
Don't be there. It'll drive him crazy. Do you care???? (:-))))))
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Old 12-27-2016, 11:42 AM   #24
tarik
 
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Dojo: Iwae Dojo
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 563
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Re: Black belt tried to attack me for doing the technique "wrong".

I confess to a character flaw in which I have, in the past, enjoyed dealing with people who want to hurt me on the mat to prove something or displayed some similar passive aggressive behavior. No one ever got hurt, but there were a few occasions where there were some uncomfortable moments that occurred.

Good on your teacher for breaking it up. I personally would have dug deeper and maybe benched you both until I got to the bottom of it. And if the other person was a yudansha, that teacher should surely already have some insight into their character. Assuming everything is as you describe, their presense in my dojo would already be questionable based upon that behavior.

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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