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Old 12-05-2016, 09:32 AM   #126
MRoh
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
here you have both sides attacking freely (with all strikes allowed) and both may evade and counter the techniques too. Where else do you see this type of free play in Aikido?
If you mean the second video:
As I see it there are no strikes, but more making contact on both sides, and giving the other a chance to to apply a technique without resisting if the situation is matching.
I think this kind of training is indepentend from style, although it may not be widely spread or practiced regularly.
I think the main task is to stay in a mode of nonresistance.
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Old 12-05-2016, 10:32 AM   #127
Amir Krause
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Those terms come from Judo and Kendo rather than Aikido but what their exact meaning is varies depending on the art. All the below can be umbrella termed as randori but ....

Kakari-geiko in Judo means continuous attack and as such it is pretty close to Jiyu waza and what happens in the same name in Shodokan. There is no resistance (attempt to shut down the technique).

Hikitate-geiko requires more feed-back from the person receiving the technique including the right to counter. The idea is that there is less generosity - if the technique is no good then there is no ukemi. Conversely if the technique is decent you are expected to go with it. I think the translation of the term into English is along the lines of ''to make one look good''. I find that a bit curious.

Randori-geiko is the level up and can be called Chaos training. Shutting down technique, counters, all is fair. The difference between that an Shiai is one of attitude. Randori is meant to bring the level up so participants are to take into account the level of their partner. Shiai is randori but with a competitive attitude - itself a learning experience.

So not really exact definitions I know and all can be done with both unarmed (toshu randori) or with one armed (tango randori). So the best I can do is provide the explanation from the Shodokan web site for the variations of tanto randori.

--Deleted-- Someone beat me to the quote--
Please explain the term "Shutting down technique"

Except for this term, I would say our Randori is in the realm between the Hikitate-geiko and Randori-geiko, with the participants mutual choice of where in this realm it should be. Generally speaking, all non forcefull actions are allowed and the attitude is to "bring the level up so participants are to take into account the level of their partner". In a Randori of equal level practitioners, one would normally evade and counter any technique one could.

I agree the intensity shown in these videos (second and fourth) is on the lower side. These are "demonstration Randori", intentionally more on the technical side.
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Old 12-05-2016, 10:41 AM   #128
Amir Krause
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
If you mean the second video:
As I see it there are no strikes, but more making contact on both sides, and giving the other a chance to to apply a technique without resisting if the situation is matching.
I think this kind of training is indepentend from style, although it may not be widely spread or practiced regularly.
I think the main task is to stay in a mode of nonresistance.
Look at the second video, it starts with Shomen atte (at 8th second), then a straight front hand strike towards the head (too light to be jab in this case, at 11th second) , a second shomen ate at 14th second as the guy comes up, then attempts to getting to face for a throw or strike (20th second to 22nd), a back hand strike at 27th second, and attack towards face at 28th, ...

If you look at 4th video from around 1:30 you'll see a similar example - lots of shomen and yokomen few straight attacks towards face.

And again, when going for a less showy Randori, one would use more straight strikes angling towards punching and less shomen and yokomen. And on a good day, you can also see a few kicks
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Old 12-05-2016, 11:02 AM   #129
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
Please explain the term "Shutting down technique"
Do I really need to explain that? There are so many ways to stop a technique from happening if the timing is not right. When I talk about counters it is the kaeshi waza but there is so much more that can be done. Everything from body positioning to dropping weight to (yes) just tensing up. Every dojo in the world has an uke at some time being difficult during kata - and stopping a technique from happening. Should be easy to imagine.

Quote:
Except for this term, I would say our Randori is in the realm between the Hikitate-geiko and Randori-geiko, with the participants mutual choice of where in this realm it should be. Generally speaking, all non forcefull actions are allowed and the attitude is to "bring the level up so participants are to take into account the level of their partner". In a Randori of equal level practitioners, one would normally evade and counter any technique one could.
Well perhaps that term makes all the difference. From the videos, even taking into account levels of intensity, randori by judo and Shodokan definitions is not being done. Each his own of course and for sure I don't want to sound as if it should be.

Last edited by PeterR : 12-05-2016 at 11:07 AM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-05-2016, 01:02 PM   #130
Amir Krause
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Re: Aikido sparing

Hi Peter

OK, given this definition of shutting down, you can see it in our Randori too. Though we would consider "shutting down" via tensing up / force / speed jump / etc. to be incorrect, while "shutting down" via flowing keeping structure is definitely legitimate.

Won't argue as to second paragraph, it seems to me like a matter of intensity / "demo purpose", but I have yet to sense your types of play first hand.
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Old 12-05-2016, 10:35 PM   #131
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
There still are multiple threads in Aikiweb dealing with Korindo Aikido and other Aikido styles relation to Ueshiba Aikido. In my mind the answer is simple, Hirai Sensei decided his way and Ueashiba's ways diverge, and so created his own Martial Art named Korindo Aikido, similar to Ueshiba leaving Daito-Ryu and creating Aikido.
Agreed.

Quote:
If one were to check, Hirai sensei is probably much less linked to Ueshiba Aikido than Ueshiba is Daito-Ryu. Hirai sensei had been a martial arts teacher (of a couple of other styles) long before his sojourn in Uesiba organization (and he was not a student here) ...

Enjoy reading
Amir
Let's establish that each of them did their own thing and end it there.
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Old 12-05-2016, 10:46 PM   #132
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Kakari geiko

Techniques as practised in kata are used but with no pre-arranged order. Tori applies techniques against uke's correct attacks and uke takes breakfalls without resistance. Tori applies a technique quickly as soon as he has thought of it. Uke takes a breakfall immediately for whatever technique is used.
This is interesting, i have newer been taught to do a break fall just because the Uke has managed to "perform" a technique.

Quote:
Through this practice, tori should be learn to act without thought. He should use this as a base for developing the ability to change to an alternative technique depending on uke's resistance, etc.
With this i agree.

Quote:
Hikitate geiko

Uke takes breakfalls when tori executes correct and effective techniques but does not take breakfalls for ineffective techniques. In this case, tori quickly transfers to another technique. Uke adjusts the speed of the knife strikes, include feints and resist techniques to a degree according the the level of the opponent. In this practice, uke assists in tori's improvement.
I did this in Kakari geiko or maybe i just taught it was Kakari geiko and it was in fact Hikitate geiko.

Quote:
Randori geiko

The person holding the knife freely attacks his opponent according to the rules and totally resists his techniques. The unarmed person aims to cultivate his techniques, mind and body through the skills that have been improved through kata, kakari geiko and hikitate geiko. Randori geiko is a practice system for progress to the highest level so it is important that aikido does not depend on physical strength but rather on posture, correct distance, avoidance, etc.

http://en.shodokanaikido.com/faq/
The main thing which unfortunately isn't a part of the training in most dojos.
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Old 12-05-2016, 10:47 PM   #133
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido sparing

Here is another link:

Aikido - Etiquette and Transmission

by Nobuyoshi Tamura, 8th Dan

Chapter 5: Places and Methods of Practice

Places

Budo is normally practiced in a dojo; however it is also a good thing to practice in different places, for example in a house, in fields, in the woods, by the sea or in the snow.

The practice of Aikido is an asceticism of every instant, which is like saying all daily activities are perceived as the study and practice of the principles of Aikido. It is useless to look for complications. It is enough to relax the shoulders, to keep the ki in the seika tanden and to have the right attitude.

The techniques of Aikido do not oppose the opponent's strength. It is the same on the mental plane. Start by doing what you can…

One can practice sitting at a table, while walking, at work, in the restrooms…even while sleeping. If one's position and breathing are correct, one cannot but sleep well.

When one doesn't know how to behave, one must invoke the master one respects or one's God and identify oneself to him. For example, if O-Sensei is the master you respect you must ask yourself: "If I was O-Sensei, what would I do?"

The answer will surely come. Then simply act in the same spirit, thinking O-Sensei is acting.

Methods

After having briefly treated the places of practice, I would like to expand a little on the methods. It is possible to train alone, in pairs or with multiple partners.

When training one's students, it is desirable to use different methods to evaluate their progress.

Hitori-geiko

When alone, it is enough to have a little time and space. One way to practice alone has been explained in the preceding chapter. It is also possible to do breathing exercises linked to Aikido movements, suburi, and tanren-uchi. In the forest, one can use the trees as partners. Try your own experiments…Imagine and teach…

Ippan-geiko

This is the regular practice in the dojo. The teacher proposes a model and the practitioners repeat it at will. We will try to give a more precise analysis of this training.

Futsu-geiko

Practitioners of all levels alternatively repeat the technique proposed by the teacher.

Uchikomi-geiko

This is the way to practice with a more advanced partner or a teacher. Let's take, for example, ryote tori tenchi nage or the way to take position for a koshi nage. The student will start the technique and stop just before the throw. He or she will then repeat this on both sides, without stopping, until he or she is out of breath. The role of the teacher is then to allow the student to develop his or her flexibility, precision and speed of movement.

The advantages of this method are as follows:

It helps to make technical progress.
It helps breathing.
It helps the quality of body movements.
It helps balance.
It stabilizes the ki in the seika tanden.
It develops kokyu ryo-ku.

Hikitate-geiko

This is another form of training by which the higher ranked help the lower ranked make progress. When the lower ranked practitioner exerts useless or confused strength, the higher ranked practitioner cancels, without blocking, the effects of this force and does not force himself to fall. This method aims at correcting the errors and weak points with benevolence.

When the execution of the movement is satisfactory, one must fall simply, in a way that allows a good extension and a good relaxation in the practice as well as getting pleasure.

If you fall well, you create the conditions for a better understanding and you support the technical blossoming of your partner. One must never overwhelm a lower ranked partner with force or knowledge, at the risk of killing the germ of progress in him. Students and kohai are our own mirror. All our defects and weak points can be found in their movements. It is thus very important to devote the greatest attention to correcting oneself.

The lower ranked students must accept advice from the higher ranked simply in order to correct their practice and improve. The responsibility of the sempai or the teacher is to foster an open-minded attitude in the beginners instead of an a priori critical attitude.

Gokaku-geiko

This form is practiced between people of equal technical and physical skill. It is important to avoid mutual complacency, frivolity or systematic blocking. This is a time to study techniques that are taught less often, that are difficult and, of course, any technique whose execution poses problems.

Kakari-geiko

Practitioners of the same level successively and without interruption attack one practitioner who repeats the technique. Since there are many ukes, they do not tire as fast. This adds to the advantages of uchikomi-geiko:

Development of kiryoku (power of the will)
Good visual perception exercise
Development of the feelings

Jyu-geiko

As its name indicates, jyu-geiko (jyu = freedom) means to practice freely: to choose the theme of one's study and then practice and study. Jyu-waza means free technique. One then looks for the technique that is the best response to an attack, or even renders it impossible. This type of training favors freedom of movement. Confusion between jyu-geiko and jyu-waza is frequent but it is desirable to clearly distinguish them.

Mitori-geiko

It sometimes happens that we are physically unable to practice, which doesn't mean it is impossible to work and improve. One can then take advantage of those moments to study, by watching class, the physical and mental aspects of techniques. One can take advantage of the position of observer to put into perspective what is difficult to grasp when physically involved.

Yagai-geiko

Training in the dojo is done while imagining a real situation, but the dojo has its limits. It is thus useful to get out of this context and practice outside and train the eye, the feet, the hands and the body in different environments. Needless to say nature presents irregularities that mats don't. There are holes and bumps; certain soils (like mud or ice) are more slippery than others. Other soils, like wet sand or clay, stick to the feet. Thick grass may hide obstacles. One must beware of hard surfaces such as rocks, concrete or loose stones on which it is easy to get hurt.

It then becomes important to adapt one's way of walking by making small steps and sliding the feet lightly. The direction of a slope, the orientation of the sun and wind as well as shade, light, darkness, the surrounding vegetation, the trees, the branches and the bushes must all be taken into account to determine the choice of an advantageous position relative to the opponent. To take only the example of ukemi, one must think and experiment to adapt ukemi practice to the outdoors.

The choice of weapons must be adapted to the environment and one must train in order to feel the criteria guiding this choice. This is why it is desirable, if we have the necessary time and space, to train outside in nature where, as opposed to the dojo, we breath pure and fresh air in the sunlight in the middle of a free space. Such an exercise feels good and is also good for the body. We bath in the ki of the sky and earth. This allows an expansive and relaxed practice.

If we practice in a pretty forest amidst tall and beautiful trees we will be filled with a vigorous ki! Nature provides many occasions to practice alone: suburi with boken or jo, tanren uchi…

It is also possible to practice kumitachi more freely than inside a dojo. There is also night training, in nature, during the full or new moon. As a reminder, the Bugeijuhappan (the eighteen branches of the art of war) included swimming, which makes it possible to conceive of variations on training in water.

In conclusion, let's add that practice changes with the seasons. The body and spirit are fortified in the hottest time of summer (shochu-geiko) or in the coldest time of winter (kan-geiko).

Etsunen-geiko is the exercise done during the New Year period. Taking advantage of the holiday period, we can "live" together during the gasshuku-geiko.

http://www.aikidosphere.com/nt-e-etiq-pt-5

Last edited by MrIggy : 12-05-2016 at 10:55 PM.
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Old 12-05-2016, 11:29 PM   #134
jurasketu
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Aikido - Etiquette and Transmission

by Nobuyoshi Tamura, 8th Dan

Chapter 5: Places and Methods of Practice
I'll definitely have to read that one. Good stuff. Thanks for sharing.

All paths lead to death. I strongly recommend taking one of the scenic routes.
AWA - Nidan - Started Aikido training in 2008
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Old 12-06-2016, 02:26 AM   #135
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Robin Johnson wrote: View Post
I'll definitely have to read that one. Good stuff. Thanks for sharing.
There is a book but it's only in French. There are however translated chapters: http://www.aikidosphere.com/tamura-sensei-s-profile
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Old 12-06-2016, 04:59 AM   #136
MRoh
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
Look at the second video, it starts with Shomen atte (at 8th second), then a straight front hand strike towards the head (too light to be jab in this case, at 11th second) , a second shomen ate at 14th second as the guy comes up, then attempts to getting to face for a throw or strike (20th second to 22nd), a back hand strike at 27th second, and attack towards face at 28th,
Getting in contact by directing one hand to the partner with the intention to enable an aikido movement is not what I would call striking. Maybe this work can be called an extended form of ki-awase.

I do not say it's not a good way of training, it's a mode in which this kind of playing with techniques can be done, real striking would be counterproductive to the aim of this exercise.
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Old 12-07-2016, 01:58 PM   #137
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido sparing

Interesting use of Kotegaeshi in a grappling environment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34-_ei1gI5c .
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Old 12-07-2016, 03:25 PM   #138
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Interesting use of Kotegaeshi in a crappling environment
Fixed.
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Old 12-07-2016, 05:35 PM   #139
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Fixed.
Meaning?
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Old 12-07-2016, 06:54 PM   #140
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido sparing

Crappling = very poor grappling.
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Old 12-07-2016, 07:24 PM   #141
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Crappling = very poor grappling.
Yeah i got that one but why do you think it's very poor grappling?
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Old 12-07-2016, 08:25 PM   #142
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido sparing

Guy in red has no clue about how to engage a seated opponent, he seems completely ignorant about basic open guard passing. Guy in green gets bored and stands up. Guy in green gets the wrist because guy in red does a very half assed hand in neck.

Right foot of guy in green when setting the armlock is positioned in a wrong angle giving guy in red a big opening for a hitchhiker escape, which is a very basic escape btw, but he is unable to capitalize. He did not even try.

So yes, there was a wrist lock takedown but performed on someone so unskilled that anything could have worked.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 12-07-2016 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 12-07-2016, 09:25 PM   #143
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido sparing

Now that's more like it. A short but thorough analysis and not just "crappling = very bad grappling".

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Guy in red has no clue about how to engage a seated opponent, he seems completely ignorant about basic open guard passing. Guy in green gets bored and stands up. Guy in green gets the wrist because guy in red does a very half assed hand in neck.
As far as for engaging a seated opponent don't you think the guy in red simply didn't wan't to engage the guy in green on the ground rather then not being knowledgeable of basic guard passes? Also have you ever managed to get hold of a wrist to pull of a kotegaeshi and how did you do it, what was your foot movement if you did?

Quote:
Right foot of guy in green when setting the armlock is positioned in a wrong angle giving guy in red a big opening for a hitchhiker escape, which is a very basic escape btw, but he is unable to capitalize. He did not even try.
Opening wasn't that big but nevertheless it was there but guy in red didn't have his arm in the right position, his thumb was pointed upward in the correct arm bar position rather then the hitchhiker position. Did that make a big difference or could he still made the escape?

Quote:
So yes, there was a wrist lock takedown but performed on someone so unskilled that anything could have worked.
And yet the guy who performed it doesn't seem to be that much skilled either. How skilled does somebody have to be in order to perform a kotegaeshi in proper grappling sparring?
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Old 12-08-2016, 12:09 PM   #144
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido sparing

IMO, this should be discussed in the non aikido sub-forum.

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
As far as for engaging a seated opponent don't you think the guy in red simply didn't wan't to engage the guy in green on the ground rather then not being knowledgeable of basic guard passes?
No. Because:
1.- The way red moves. His lack of base, posture and gripping skills.Everything in his body language points to him having no grappling skills.
2.- Tactically speaking, when one doesn't want to pass the guard that's because one wants to play guard or wants to play standup to get a takedown or pulling guard. In this case, red didn't went to guard as soon as green stood up nor went for a takedown or pulled guard in the stand up phase. He was completelly lost and outclassed both in the ground and standing.

Quote:
Also have you ever managed to get hold of a wrist to pull of a kotegaeshi and how did you do it, what was your foot movement if you did?
I've pulled this one a couple times in the stand up phase.

Quote:
Opening wasn't that big but nevertheless it was there but guy in red didn't have his arm in the right position, his thumb was pointed upward in the correct arm bar position rather then the hitchhiker position. Did that make a big difference or could he still made the escape?
The opening for the escape comes not for the arm position but from green's right leg position. Here you can see the escape with a fully extended arm. Red pants made the same mistake green shirt did.

Quote:
And yet the guy who performed it doesn't seem to be that much skilled either. How skilled does somebody have to be in order to perform a kotegaeshi in proper grappling sparring?
I'd say it is more about how unskilled is the one being kotegaeshi'ed.
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Old 12-08-2016, 11:05 PM   #145
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
IMO, this should be discussed in the non aikido sub-forum.
Well if Aikido techniques or principles are used i don't think it's against the rules to discuss it here in "Aikido traiing". Even if it is in different circumstances then "regular" Aikido training.

Quote:
No. Because:
1.- The way red moves. His lack of base, posture and gripping skills.Everything in his body language points to him having no grappling skills.
2.- Tactically speaking, when one doesn't want to pass the guard that's because one wants to play guard or wants to play standup to get a takedown or pulling guard. In this case, red didn't went to guard as soon as green stood up nor went for a takedown or pulled guard in the stand up phase. He was completelly lost and outclassed both in the ground and standing.
That's a good explanation of the basic strategy in a grappling environment. I agree he didn't seem to much keen on grappling.

Quote:
I've pulled this one a couple times in the stand up phase.
Reverse kotegaeshi or tegetana as someone call's it. Did you manage to perform it with an opponent holding your hand or just the Gi? I am trying to workout different variations of techniques being performed on a Gi, jacket or any type of "heavier" clothing and not just directly holding the hand.

Quote:
The opening for the escape comes not for the arm position but from green's right leg position. Here you can see the escape with a fully extended arm. Red pants made the same mistake green shirt did.
So it all depends on the correct positioning of the right leg. That's good to know.

Quote:
I'd say it is more about how unskilled is the one being kotegaeshi'ed.
Well the kotegaeshi itself wasn't fully correctly applied so i guess it was basically down to who was more unskilled then skilled.
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Old 12-09-2016, 05:27 AM   #146
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Reverse kotegaeshi or tegetana as someone call's it. Did you manage to perform it with an opponent holding your hand or just the Gi?
Opponent grabbing wrist.

Quote:
I am trying to workout different variations of techniques being performed on a Gi, jacket or any type of "heavier" clothing and not just directly holding the hand.
Trying to reinvent the weel?

Quote:
So it all depends on the correct positioning of the right leg. That's good to know.
Not everything depends on that, but leg position is important for this armlock to work. Uke's shoulder has to be controlled to limit his mobility. Here is explained, notice how tori places his right instep under uke's armpit.
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Old 12-09-2016, 12:42 PM   #147
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Opponent grabbing wrist.
Standard version.

Quote:
Trying to reinvent the weel?
Nope, just refining techniques and trying to realize which solutions are best for certain situations.

Quote:
Not everything depends on that, but leg position is important for this armlock to work. Uke's shoulder has to be controlled to limit his mobility. Here is explained, notice how tori places his right instep under uke's armpit.
Yes i know about that detail, but what i was taught is that the angle, is which the hand is locked, is more important. As you can see here: http://judoinfo.com/images/kansetsu/jujigatame-5.jpg , Tori pules out Uke's arm to about a 45' degree angle, opening the armpit and thus enabling a much stronger restriction of the movement of the shoulder. This off course enables you to put the instep deeper into the armpit. But even if you aren't using the basic version you should still keep the angle just like here: http://judoinfo.com/images/kansetsu/jujigatame-7.jpg because the restriction is still the strongest in this position. Many people disregard this detail, just like in Aikido where people disregard the proper use of Tenshin for offensive and defensive tactics.
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Old 12-09-2016, 02:24 PM   #148
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,240
Spain
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Re: Aikido sparing

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Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Nope, just refining techniques and trying to realize which solutions are best for certain situations.
Interesting. How is it going?

Quote:
Yes i know about that detail, but what i was taught is that the angle, is which the hand is locked, is more important. As you can see here:..
Nope. You got it wrong. The angle is the effect of properly locking the shoulder, and is related to tori's flexibility and angle of entry. There should be no arm pulling for making space for foot insertion, foot has to be already inserted in place before going for the arm extension, e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDemjk_BBhc

See, now we're talking about Judo, not Aikido. Posts should be moved.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 12-09-2016 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 12-10-2016, 01:44 AM   #149
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 275
Serbia
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Re: Aikido sparing

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Interesting. How is it going?
Well it is interesting to say the least. Certain techniques and movements that i thought were best for defense are pretty good for offense as well. Tactics about which technique to use in which situation have also become more clearer. The fact that you have taken somebody's balance doesn't mean that you have full control of him, actually it can be pretty deceiving. That's about it for now.

Quote:
Nope. You got it wrong. The angle is the effect of properly locking the shoulder, and is related to tori's flexibility and angle of entry. There should be no arm pulling for making space for foot insertion, foot has to be already inserted in place before going for the arm extension, e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDemjk_BBhc
Nope. Actually the angle depends on the placement, and movement, of the hips, at 0:10: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--rAoF9QzQo as you can see from the very beginning she has a 45' angle.

Here you can see, from the very beginning the angle is first established, in both variations, then the proper placement of the legs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L40E2IScUPs . In the second variation, instep under armpit, Uke even manages to get his arm under a more perpendicular, 90' degree, angle by pulling his arm.

Quote:
See, now we're talking about Judo, not Aikido. Posts should be moved.
Well technically only some parts of the posts should be moved. It is a bit off topic but not entirely.
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