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Old 11-29-2016, 01:05 AM   #101
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido sparing

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Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
unarmed with rules (only punching/kicking or both, only grabbing(grappling)/throwing or both, all four but no attacking the eyes or crotch),
without rules (punch, kick, grab(grapple), throw without regard to intensity or target),
armed (wooden/plastic/metal (blunt-edge) training knife, wooden/metal rod with sponge coating on hitting end, staff or sword with rubber coating) all of this with regular weapons,
all of the mentioned with or without protection gear (helmet, gloves, chest and rib guard, shin pads, knee pads, elbow pads, instep pads)
You do all of this?
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Old 11-29-2016, 06:24 PM   #102
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido sparing

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
You do all of this?
Unfortunately i didn't do all of it. Mostly unarmed with rules, grabbing(grappling), with some friends and armed with and without rules (wooden knife or tanto and jo). I am currently not training, or to say i am training sporadically.
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Old 11-30-2016, 09:12 PM   #103
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido sparing

I forgot, we also trained with wooden rods with sponge coating on the hitting end. It was a quite good experience. You get to understand the preciousness of timing and distance for attacks like yokomenuchi pretty clearly.
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Old 12-01-2016, 05:52 AM   #104
Amir Krause
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Re: Aikido sparing

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Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Yes, but the type of randori we are talking about can be found only in Shodokan Aikido. You don't have randori in other styles of Aikido. There are dojo's that do a somewhat higher intensity level of Jiyu waza like the ones done in Tenshin dojo and call it randori but in general the idea of randori can be found only in Kenji Tomiki's approach to Aikido.
This is only true if you limit yourself to Ueshiba Aikido, if you widen your focus, you will find Korindo Aikido defenitly has Randori which is very similar to Shodokan's Randori, and without the competition element at all.

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Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
Usually when it comes to sparring, the time frame in which one could act in an aikido way is missed. There is no irimi entering, no kuzushi on contact, no atemi in the first moment.
Instead of this, people begin to fight, but in aikido there is no fighting. If it comes to the situation in which people grab each other like in Judo, everything they have learned in their aikido training is forgotten, dragging and pulling begins, and all the fluidity is gone. Every attempt to get the other person to move in a fluid way is bound to fail, because the counterparty will not participate in the movement voluntarily. Automatically the movement is done from the arms, and it very easy to stop a movement at once.

So if people want to learn to act in an aikido-way, the answer is not to train judo, but to train aikido behaviour in a consequent way.
If yo want to sparr, the difficulty lies in doing it in a friendly way, normally aikido as a fighting method works in a full contact way, so there is not much space for playing. Thinking should be about ending the fight in the first moment, not about beginning it.

People must learn that aikido has it's own set of trainingtools, and that this kind of training can't be mixed with Judo randori or sparring.
In aikido we train in this cooperative approach to make it possible to practice.
Of course if you want to learn judo, you can do so, if you want to learn boxing, you can do it as well.
To be skilled in this arts is definitively appropriate, because it is good to know how this people act, but to do what they do ist not aikido.
Of course it's possible to use aiki skills in Judo or boxing, but I think this is another question. There were people in judo with remarkable skills, but they called what they did judo, not aikido.
If one is able to let aiki shine through, it will not depend on the scenario, but before one has developed such high skills, he also has to learn a method and how to apply it consequently.
Well, look at following examples of Korindo Aikido Randori and see examples of sparring, without competition and still, doing aikido:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NH-jx5YSZ8 - Korindo Aikido founder in a demo, one spontanous attacker. This free play type is seen in many places, and is a very good starting point for the rest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsgVIDYWszU - Empty hands free play. note how many counters, evasions from attack and other elements are added into the play, spontaneously, unlike a Kata, and still this is distinctly Aikido. In this video, my teacher is playing to show others how to play, letting both sides attack, interact wit the other, adjusting speed and intensity - not to the extreme in free play, keeping soft harmonic and responsive yet not surrendering to weak tecnhique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_gC7UrqR84 - Mostly Empty hands play, with multiple attackers. Here there is at least one distinct moment you can see this is a practice and not a fight: at 4:45, the attacker is waiting to make sure the practitioner will see him and be able to respond. Also note again, there are almost no hand grasp attacks, rather a variety of strikes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQGvJk6O8hI - Playing with Jo in Randori, While they do strike at each other, hitting is not the goal of the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udXpZItffiw - Starting with Jo Randori, and then empty hands Randori two rather veteran practitioners in the video, yet again, we do this type of practice from a much earlier step, in a proper progressive manner.

All of those videos are with rather experienced practitioners, all Yundasha, and except in the third video (Jo only Randori) almost all have trained for over 25 years. Yet that is because we rarely post videos, not how we practice. In Korindo Aikido we do similar practice even with beginners as soon as they know a couple of techniques and their Ukemi is safe nough (though adjusting the level - reducing counter techniques, attacking slow, and even helping).

This is sparring as a learning tool, not as a way for self testing, nor a dummy fight. One will create opportunities to the other as he attacks, and take the opportunities the other gives him as he attacks or has open holes in his defense. In this way one can improve his own practice, find his own errors and openings, without loosing an arm or a leg for that.

At least my own experience, from the few Aikido guests whom came and were willing to practice Randori with us. Most found the spontaneous nature of this play, as one evades their technique, they often freeze, and then tend to harden themselves, as if this was a fight and not a learning game, and then being countered and thrown instead of having their technique go as they wanted leaves them ashtonised. Still I should mention there were also few who have played just like us, doing their Aikido, as it should be. Also had one Shodokan guest so far, he did play with us freely, yet seemed to to try and use more speed and strength while we focus on technique and timing (but - one encounter - so conclusions are problematic).
As a general rule of thumb - if one wishes to practice aikido for fighting ability, doing multiple forms of sparring, with different rules of play, forcing the mind to apply his own aikido way in multiple chaotic environments is essential.
Even more important, at least fr me, after over 25 years of practice, Randori / "free play" is so much FUN.

Amir

P.S.
if you search these forums, you can find lots and lots of pages on Randori / "free play" and it's contribution to Aikido
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Old 12-01-2016, 09:57 AM   #105
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido sparing

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Amir Krause wrote: View Post
Well, look at following examples of Korindo Aikido Randori and see examples of sparring, without competition and still, doing aikido:
Nice work but, for me, still lacking -how to say it?- ...pressure.

Quote:
As a general rule of thumb - if one wishes to practice aikido for fighting ability, doing multiple forms of sparring, with different rules of play, forcing the mind to apply his own aikido way in multiple chaotic environments is essential.
I think sparring is more important for developing honesty than for fighting ability.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 12-01-2016 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 12-01-2016, 11:05 AM   #106
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Re: Aikido sparing

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Nice work but, for me, still lacking -how to say it?- ...pressure.

I think sparring is more important for developing honesty than for fighting ability.
Well honestly ......

It's a necessary tool if that is the path you want to take but you won't know how good it was until you have dropped yourself in it. The closer you are to a ''fight'' in your training the better idea you have but .... and its a big but ... the field is scattered with delusions.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-01-2016, 03:59 PM   #107
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Re: Aikido sparing

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Amir Krause wrote: View Post
This is only true if you limit yourself to Ueshiba Aikido, if you widen your focus, you will find Korindo Aikido defenitly has Randori which is very similar to Shodokan's Randori, and without the competition element at all.
From what i can read here even Minoru Hirai studied under O'Sensei https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoru_Hirai.

Quote:
Well, look at following examples of Korindo Aikido Randori and see examples of sparring, without competition and still, doing aikido:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NH-jx5YSZ8 - Korindo Aikido founder in a demo, one spontanous attacker. This free play type is seen in many places, and is a very good starting point for the rest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsgVIDYWszU - Empty hands free play. note how many counters, evasions from attack and other elements are added into the play, spontaneously, unlike a Kata, and still this is distinctly Aikido. In this video, my teacher is playing to show others how to play, letting both sides attack, interact wit the other, adjusting speed and intensity - not to the extreme in free play, keeping soft harmonic and responsive yet not surrendering to weak tecnhique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_gC7UrqR84 - Mostly Empty hands play, with multiple attackers. Here there is at least one distinct moment you can see this is a practice and not a fight: at 4:45, the attacker is waiting to make sure the practitioner will see him and be able to respond. Also note again, there are almost no hand grasp attacks, rather a variety of strikes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQGvJk6O8hI - Playing with Jo in Randori, While they do strike at each other, hitting is not the goal of the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udXpZItffiw - Starting with Jo Randori, and then empty hands Randori two rather veteran practitioners in the video, yet again, we do this type of practice from a much earlier step, in a proper progressive manner.
Except for the free play part, honestly it's all just basic Aikido from my point of view.
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Old 12-02-2016, 01:10 AM   #108
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Re: Aikido sparing

--- kind of OT but ... ---

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Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
From what i can read here even Minoru Hirai studied under O'Sensei ...
I think it would be more correct to see it as an exchange of two sensei in their own right. I think it to be misleading to speak of Hirai as a student of Ueshiba.

Hirai Minoru is also respectfully called "o sensei". And it was him - not Ueshiba - who invented the name "aikidō".
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Old 12-02-2016, 05:03 AM   #109
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Re: Aikido sparing

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Amir Krause wrote: View Post
Well, look at following examples of Korindo Aikido Randori and see examples of sparring, without competition and still, doing aikido:
Free training ore jyu geiko is part of the toolset that is normally available in every Aikido "style".
This are examples for the trainingstools I talked about , but it's not what people normally call sparring.

Nobuyoshi Tamura writes in his book Aikido - Etiquette and Transmission about jyu-geiko:

"As its name indicates, jyu-geiko (jyu = freedom) means to practice freely: to choose the theme of one's study and then practice and study. Jyu-waza means free technique. One then looks for the technique that is the best response to an attack, or even renders it impossible. This type of training favors freedom of movement. Confusion between jyu-geiko and jyu-waza is frequent but it is desirable to clearly distinguish them."
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Old 12-02-2016, 05:43 AM   #110
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido sparing

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The closer you are to a ''fight'' in your training the better idea you have but .... and its a big but ... the field is scattered with delusions.
Indeed, and one can easily exchange one delusion for another.
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Old 12-02-2016, 08:25 AM   #111
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Re: Aikido sparing

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
--- kind of OT but ... ---

I think it would be more correct to see it as an exchange of two sensei in their own right. I think it to be misleading to speak of Hirai as a student of Ueshiba.
Perhaps. After all he did became the Director of General Affairs of the Kobukan and a representative in the Butokukai after only a short time spent there so he must have had a high level of martial proficiency.

Quote:
Hirai Minoru is also respectfully called "o sensei". And it was him - not Ueshiba - who invented the name "aikidō".
Actually, judging by this interview, it was a man named Hisatomi from the Kodokan. http://members.aikidojournal.com/pub...-minoru-hirai/ And technically none of them "invented" the name, they just added the DO part so that the name would be an umbrella term for many martial arts of the time that specified Aiki as part of their curriculum.

Last edited by MrIggy : 12-02-2016 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 12-02-2016, 08:39 AM   #112
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Re: Aikido sparing

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Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
Free training ore jyu geiko is part of the toolset that is normally available in every Aikido "style".
This are examples for the trainingstools I talked about , but it's not what people normally call sparring.

Nobuyoshi Tamura writes in his book Aikido - Etiquette and Transmission about jyu-geiko:

"As its name indicates, jyu-geiko (jyu = freedom) means to practice freely: to choose the theme of one's study and then practice and study. Jyu-waza means free technique. One then looks for the technique that is the best response to an attack, or even renders it impossible. This type of training favors freedom of movement. Confusion between jyu-geiko and jyu-waza is frequent but it is desirable to clearly distinguish them."
In general in every Aikido "style", but in general not in most Aikido dojo's. The last sentence is probably the answer of the problem. Many people never heard of the term jyu-geiko including me.
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Old 12-02-2016, 10:08 AM   #113
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido sparing

Igor, if you don't mind, which is your Aikido lineage/style?
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Old 12-02-2016, 10:46 AM   #114
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Re: Aikido sparing

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Igor, if you don't mind, which is your Aikido lineage/style?
A mixed style/techniques of Hiroshi Tada and his student Masatomi Ikeda. Both off course are under the Aikikai organization.
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Old 12-04-2016, 03:40 AM   #115
Amir Krause
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Re: Aikido sparing

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Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Yes, but the type of randori we are talking about can be found only in Shodokan Aikido. You don't have randori in other styles of Aikido. There are dojo's that do a somewhat higher intensity level of Jiyu waza like the ones done in Tenshin dojo and call it randori but in general the idea of randori can be found only in Kenji Tomiki's approach to Aikido.
Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Well honestly ......

It's a necessary tool if that is the path you want to take but you won't know how good it was until you have dropped yourself in it. The closer you are to a ''fight'' in your training the better idea you have but .... and its a big but ... the field is scattered with delusions.
Hi

After a few first years, We don't mistake the practice of free play with a fight.
Our Randori is a learning tool, not a proving tool, the level of pressure can be turned up or down, depending on the desired learning impact. The normal safe way to turn the pressure up in our methodology, is to have one practitioner much more experianced than the other, apply the pressure and take responsibility for both their safety.

These videos are of Randori in large meetings, kind of a demonstration, in these circumstances, there is a tendency to keep the pressure low.

Trying to turn a Randori closer to fighting requires significant changes, as these Randori has very minor limitations in technical terms, if one wishes more force/power while keeping safety, one would have to limit the technical curriculum (as was done by Tomiki and in Judo).

Thanks
Amir
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Old 12-04-2016, 04:02 AM   #116
Amir Krause
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Re: Aikido sparing

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Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Except for the free play part, honestly it's all just basic Aikido from my point of view.
This was the very point I am trying to make - you can do Aikido in a free play format, and keep it Aikido, unlike some claims above. As to it being simle or not, well, the more I study, the more I believe the simple techniques are the advanced ones and vice versa It's not so easy to do even a simple technique when someone is looking for openings to strike or counter.

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
Free training ore jyu geiko is part of the toolset that is normally available in every Aikido "style".
This are examples for the trainingstools I talked about , but it's not what people normally call sparring.

Nobuyoshi Tamura writes in his book Aikido - Etiquette and Transmission about jyu-geiko:

"As its name indicates, jyu-geiko (jyu = freedom) means to practice freely: to choose the theme of one's study and then practice and study. Jyu-waza means free technique. One then looks for the technique that is the best response to an attack, or even renders it impossible. This type of training favors freedom of movement. Confusion between jyu-geiko and jyu-waza is frequent but it is desirable to clearly distinguish them."
I am not familiar with the exact terms definitions you are writing about here (might be an issue of styles naming differences- not all terms are universal). So please explain what are differences between the terms. e.g. It's not clear what theme means in this context, what are you considering as Jyu-waza and what as sparring.

Additionaly, you wrote these tools exist in all Aikido "style" I think even just reading this thread shows a different picture. Some wrote above training like this could never look like Aikido, and is defnitly not part of their tradition. Personally, outside of Korindo and Shodkan, the most I have seen is one side (may have multiple people) attacking and the other side doing Aikido techniques, here you have both sides attacking freely (with all strikes allowed) and both may evade and counter the techniques too. Where else do you see this type of free play in Aikido?

Regards
Amir
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Old 12-04-2016, 04:10 AM   #117
Amir Krause
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Re: Aikido sparing

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Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Perhaps. After all he did became the Director of General Affairs of the Kobukan and a representative in the Butokukai after only a short time spent there so he must have had a high level of martial proficiency.

Actually, judging by this interview, it was a man named Hisatomi from the Kodokan. http://members.aikidojournal.com/pub...-minoru-hirai/ And technically none of them "invented" the name, they just added the DO part so that the name would be an umbrella term for many martial arts of the time that specified Aiki as part of their curriculum.
There still are multiple threads in Aikiweb dealing with Korindo Aikido and other Aikido styles relation to Ueshiba Aikido. In my mind the answer is simple, Hirai Sensei decided his way and Ueashiba's ways diverge, and so created his own Martial Art named Korindo Aikido, similar to Ueshiba leaving Daito-Ryu and creating Aikido. If one were to check, Hirai sensei is probably much less linked to Ueshiba Aikido than Ueshiba is Daito-Ryu. Hirai sensei had been a martial arts teacher (of a couple of other styles) long before his sojourn in Uesiba organization (and he was not a student here) ...

Enjoy reading
Amir
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Old 12-04-2016, 05:32 AM   #118
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Re: Aikido sparing

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Amir Krause wrote: View Post
Trying to turn a Randori closer to fighting requires significant changes, as these Randori has very minor limitations in technical terms, if one wishes more force/power while keeping safety, one would have to limit the technical curriculum (as was done by Tomiki and in Judo).
What Shodokan does is define three very distinct levels of resistance as training tools.

Kakari-geiko - basically no resistance
Hikitate-geiko - takes the ukemi only for properly executed technique - some resistance
and Randori-geiko

Shiai itself (the competition) is probably best considered a 4th level.

What I saw with the above videos is somewhere between the first two done as toshu (the type of randori done with both unarmed).

There is less need to limit what's allowed at the lower levels of resistance - most of the implied limitations when doing Kakari-geiko is to keep it in the realm of aikido training rather than judo but even there you can get ummm playful.

As an aside - understanding the expected levels of resistance is one of the most difficult things to teach. I was always amazed at how easy its picked up in Japan but how difficult it is to instill elsewhere. Maybe its the mass of examples or maybe something else. Safety is always important and for that to happen both participants have to be on the same page.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-04-2016, 02:53 PM   #119
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
What Shodokan does is define three very distinct levels of resistance as training tools.

Kakari-geiko - basically no resistance
Hikitate-geiko - takes the ukemi only for properly executed technique - some resistance
and Randori-geiko

Shiai itself (the competition) is probably best considered a 4th level.

Very interesting, thank you for sharing this.

As an aside - understanding the expected levels of resistance is one of the most difficult things to teach. I was always amazed at how easy its picked up in Japan but how difficult it is to instill elsewhere. Maybe its the mass of examples or maybe something else. Safety is always important and for that to happen both participants have to be on the same page.
The problem with expected levels of resistance is that I do try to teach people to not chase the resistance. Getting back to one of the first videos, our "representative" grabs a wrist, and keeps a death grip on a wrist that is held low while the attacker's head is right there ready to be hit or grabbed. Moving beyond tunnel vision is not a lesson that comes well from basic kata, but options can be shown in kata. A certain amount of resistance should be happening in kata anyway I think, but not resisting the form being practiced but the alternatives to the form being practiced. I do iriminage to someone who straightens up, I do kaitenage to someone who bends over. I take arms when they push out and extend, and I take torsos or heads when the arms suck in.
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Old 12-05-2016, 05:09 AM   #120
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
The problem with expected levels of resistance is that I do try to teach people to not chase the resistance. Getting back to one of the first videos, our "representative" grabs a wrist, and keeps a death grip on a wrist that is held low while the attacker's head is right there ready to be hit or grabbed. Moving beyond tunnel vision is not a lesson that comes well from basic kata, but options can be shown in kata. A certain amount of resistance should be happening in kata anyway I think, but not resisting the form being practiced but the alternatives to the form being practiced. I do iriminage to someone who straightens up, I do kaitenage to someone who bends over. I take arms when they push out and extend, and I take torsos or heads when the arms suck in.
Not sure we are talking about resistance in the same way. All of the versions I listed above are sparing (randori) just with different levels of resistance (uncooperative) with the lowest level being close to jyu-waza.

Kata has defined roles for uke and part of that could well include elements of resistance but in a cooperative way. Tori (in his defined role) uses that resistance to move uke. Otherwise we would be playing with jello. Some of our partnered drills use a large level of resistance - they could be called kata also and I am thinking some of the things I was exposed to in an Iwama style dojo.

When you are altering a technique according to a developing situation you are moving away from kata into jyu-waza. When uke is not responding in the expected way we really have only two choices - stop and correct or by demonstration do something else. Both are effective teaching tools but the latter is more fun and good for tori.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-05-2016, 07:10 AM   #121
Amir Krause
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Yes, but the type of randori we are talking about can be found only in Shodokan Aikido. You don't have randori in other styles of Aikido. There are dojo's that do a somewhat higher intensity level of Jiyu waza like the ones done in Tenshin dojo and call it randori but in general the idea of randori can be found only in Kenji Tomiki's approach to Aikido.
Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
What Shodokan does is define three very distinct levels of resistance as training tools.

Kakari-geiko - basically no resistance
Hikitate-geiko - takes the ukemi only for properly executed technique - some resistance
and Randori-geiko

Shiai itself (the competition) is probably best considered a 4th level.
Is there any common definition of the terms??
Peter, can you give a concrete definiiton for all three - "Kakari-geiko", "Hikitate-geiko", and "Randori-geiko" (I think I know of Shiai - competition - right?)

What about "Jiyu waza" and how does that relate to "randori" ?

Thanks
Amir
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Old 12-05-2016, 07:37 AM   #122
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido sparing

The randori practice system was originally called 'midare geiko' (disordered practice). It has never been easy but it is not something that has to be practised.

Those people who do not want to take part in matches can still reflect on the techniques they learn in kata by taking part in randori practice. In addition, there are three levels of randori practice to choose from according to age, sex and physical condition.

Kakari geiko

Techniques as practised in kata are used but with no pre-arranged order. Tori applies techniques against uke's correct attacks and uke takes breakfalls without resistance. Tori applies a technique quickly as soon as he has thought of it. Uke takes a breakfall immediately for whatever technique is used.

Through this practice, tori should be learn to act without thought. He should use this as a base for developing the ability to change to an alternative technique depending on uke's resistance, etc.

Hikitate geiko

Uke takes breakfalls when tori executes correct and effective techniques but does not take breakfalls for ineffective techniques. In this case, tori quickly transfers to another technique. Uke adjusts the speed of the knife strikes, include feints and resist techniques to a degree according the the level of the opponent. In this practice, uke assists in tori's improvement.

Randori geiko

The person holding the knife freely attacks his opponent according to the rules and totally resists his techniques. The unarmed person aims to cultivate his techniques, mind and body through the skills that have been improved through kata, kakari geiko and hikitate geiko. Randori geiko is a practice system for progress to the highest level so it is important that aikido does not depend on physical strength but rather on posture, correct distance, avoidance, etc.

http://en.shodokanaikido.com/faq/
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Old 12-05-2016, 07:49 AM   #123
PeterR
 
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
Is there any common definition of the terms??
Peter, can you give a concrete definiiton for all three - "Kakari-geiko", "Hikitate-geiko", and "Randori-geiko" (I think I know of Shiai - competition - right?)

What about "Jiyu waza" and how does that relate to "randori" ?

Thanks
Amir
Those terms come from Judo and Kendo rather than Aikido but what their exact meaning is varies depending on the art. All the below can be umbrella termed as randori but ....

Kakari-geiko in Judo means continuous attack and as such it is pretty close to Jiyu waza and what happens in the same name in Shodokan. There is no resistance (attempt to shut down the technique).

Hikitate-geiko requires more feed-back from the person receiving the technique including the right to counter. The idea is that there is less generosity - if the technique is no good then there is no ukemi. Conversely if the technique is decent you are expected to go with it. I think the translation of the term into English is along the lines of ''to make one look good''. I find that a bit curious.

Randori-geiko is the level up and can be called Chaos training. Shutting down technique, counters, all is fair. The difference between that an Shiai is one of attitude. Randori is meant to bring the level up so participants are to take into account the level of their partner. Shiai is randori but with a competitive attitude - itself a learning experience.

So not really exact definitions I know and all can be done with both unarmed (toshu randori) or with one armed (tango randori). So the best I can do is provide the explanation from the Shodokan web site for the variations of tanto randori.

--Deleted-- Someone beat me to the quote--

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-05-2016, 07:52 AM   #124
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido sparing

Peter,

At what level kaeshi waza is allowed?
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Old 12-05-2016, 08:08 AM   #125
PeterR
 
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Re: Aikido sparing

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Peter,

At what level kaeshi waza is allowed?
Short answer is Hikitate-geiko.

Longer answer is it depends. The lines between the various forms can be a little blurry and depend on whose practicing and what is agreed to. It is not unusual in Kakari-geiko for toshu (the one without the tanto) to put themselves in a position which just begs for a counter. Technically the role of attacker and defender is more strictly defined then the next level up but .....

Conversely with Hikitate-geiko we could say - no counters. It depends on what we are trying to achieve. It is rare - generally done when we are moving someone from having only done Kakari-geiko to Hikitate-geiko but the point is that these levels of training are more a graduation than distinct clearly definable layers.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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