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Old 11-27-2016, 01:49 AM   #1
akiy
 
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YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)



Here is a video of a demonstration by Christian Tissier (8th dan, Circle Tissier; Paris, France) at the 12th International Aikido Federation Congress in Gunma, Japan in 2016.

What are your thoughts on this demonstration?

-- Jun

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Old 11-27-2016, 10:43 AM   #2
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

The demo would be more dynamic if the ukes had a little pep. I understand it is a demonstration. The ukes don't seem interested in continuing the attack. They just seem to follow along languidly.

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Old 11-28-2016, 03:50 AM   #3
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
The ukes don't seem interested in continuing the attack. They just seem to follow along languidly.
What do you mean with "continuing the attack"?

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 11-28-2016 at 03:55 AM.
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Old 11-28-2016, 06:12 AM   #4
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

Less flowery than his older demos, I like more this one.
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Old 11-28-2016, 07:08 AM   #5
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

I mean continuing to follow and trying to find him after he turns or retreats. I also mean having a little life and enthusiasm.

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Old 11-28-2016, 07:09 AM   #6
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

I touched on it it my last blog post.

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Old 11-29-2016, 04:26 AM   #7
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I mean continuing to follow and trying to find him after he turns or retreats. I also mean having a little life and enthusiasm.
Not sure, but it seems that your understanding of ukemi is different from his.
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Old 11-29-2016, 06:37 AM   #8
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Not sure, but it seems that your understanding of ukemi is different from his.
His attackers hit, stop and wait to be thrown. It's especially evident during the yokomen uchi shihonage portion of the demo. If I'm your uke when you move to avoid or engage my attack by turning, entering, retreating or whatever, I'm not going to just stand around waiting for you to throw me. Once you move I'm going to hunt you down and continue attacking. I'll continue attacking until you take my balance and execute the technique.

Ron

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Old 11-29-2016, 06:43 AM   #9
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

Something like this?
https://www.facebook.com/berkshirehi...type=2&theater
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Old 11-29-2016, 07:26 AM   #10
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
If I'm your uke ...
As I thought: Different kind of ukemi ...

Quote:
His attackers hit, stop and wait to be thrown. It's especially evident during the yokomen uchi shihonage portion of the demo.
... until you take my balance and execute the technique ..
Hm, did you ever have the feeling that he "left you alone" during these "pauses" when you practiced with him (or an advanced student of him)? It is my experience that there is a continuing kuzushi also in these "pauses".
After watching the video that Demtrio posted I think your approach to aikidō is different from what Christian tries to do. So for me it seems hard to compare both ways
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Old 11-29-2016, 09:08 AM   #11
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post

What are your thoughts on this demonstration?
In some situations I have the feeling he was not as controlled as usual.
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Old 11-29-2016, 02:33 PM   #12
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

Carsten, seems to me his ukes really spend a lot of time waiting here, and they do not seem to be too much under his control while they do it. Not sure that is a style of ukemi, or what that style would be good for, but of course everything can be explained away eventually. People from three "styles" seem to have agreed here so far that was maybe was not his best day, or demo mode...

Or, to frame it in a more productive way: why would anybody keep contact if they do not intend to follow up?

Last edited by Nicholas Eschenbruch : 11-29-2016 at 02:35 PM. Reason: spelling; additions :-)
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Old 11-29-2016, 03:28 PM   #13
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

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Nicholas Eschenbruch wrote: View Post
... maybe was not his best day ...
Yes. His knee was bad. You actually see him limp.
And also his shoulder was very bad. He canceled all his seminars because of a shoulder surgery. This enbu was on of his last actions before that.
Nevertheless ...
Quote:
... seems to me his ukes really spend a lot of time waiting here ...
Not sure that is a style of ukemi, or what that style would be good for, ...
... you will find this phenomenon being discussed here very often, with regard to videos of Christian Tissier.
So while the performance of Christian may be not that good during this enbu due to injuries, it is still a certain way of ukemi that is at least different from what Mary and Ron expect their uke to do.

The why/how/when of these "pauses", even is usually addressed during our grading preparation seminars.

And you may remember that Yamguchi sensei was "accused" to have ruined the aikidō in an irrecoverable way? One reason for that was the ukemi, he demanded: He clearly did not want uke to follow or to move by himself or to "hunt" tori "down and continue attacking".
Endō sensei still get's mad when he sees that: "Why do you move by yourself?!?"

In a nutshell: uke is not that much an attacker, but is more a mere feedback for tori.
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Old 11-29-2016, 03:59 PM   #14
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
The why/how/when of these "pauses", even is usually addressed during our grading preparation seminars.
Can you elaborate on the 'why/how/when of these "pauses"', Carsten? I'm interested in the rationale.

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Endō sensei still get's mad when he sees that: "Why do you move by yourself?!?"
My short answer would be that I move because I can.

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
In a nutshell: uke is not that much an attacker, but is more a mere feedback for tori.
Now that is an interesting role assignment for uke. Is that the sole role for uke in your Aikido? Does uke ever pressure tori so that tori can experience dealing with increasing amounts of force in order to develop a stronger center and a more coordinated mind/body?

Ron

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Old 11-29-2016, 04:30 PM   #15
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
I'll continue attacking until you take my balance and execute the technique.
That's not attacking, that's just following and keeping contact.
Basically there is no difference in both concepts, but the training mode is different.
This "following" is similar to what O Senseis ukes did , but they did not do it by their own decision. My teacher said, his body was running when he attacked him because it was like an undertow, but he himself did not unterstand why he had to follow.
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Old 11-29-2016, 05:12 PM   #16
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

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Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
That's not attacking, that's just following and keeping contact.
Well, not quite. If I'm working with one of my advanced students I'll attack, say with a yokomen uchi, and, if permitted, I'll keep attacking with yokomen until I'm thrown. This kind of pressure testing is a normal part of our training. With less advanced students I'll appropriately mitigate my attack.

Ron

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Old 11-29-2016, 05:24 PM   #17
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

Tissier ukes always move if there is an opening, but only if exploiting it doesn't also open themselves up.

The resulting "martial stalemate" (or "pause" as we're calling it here) is something Tissier calls "equalising".

Here's the same concept as it applies to Katate dori Tenkan ho (subtitles available).
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Old 11-30-2016, 05:39 AM   #18
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
I'll keep attacking with yokomen until I'm thrown. This kind of pressure testing is a normal part of our training.
I wouldn't call this an attack, because a yokomen strike least only a short moment, and in reality you have to deal with what you get in this moment. A strike is a strike, and it can't b e extended.
What you describe is to stretch the time slot, thats not real attacking, its a way to give your students a chance to practice.
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Old 12-06-2016, 07:16 AM   #19
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Can you elaborate on the 'why/how/when of these "pauses", Carsten? I'm interested in the rationale.
As far as I understand it, it is about learning the construction/architecture/structure of a certain technique.
There are different parts to be distinguished: The entry, the leading of uke, the throw, e.g. . The "pauses" mark (can mark) the transition from one part to the next.
Tey have a certain place, a certain way of contact ... to serve as tools to check one's way through the construction of a certain technique.
When I stille used to practice with Christian Tissier, he allways emphasized, that during embu he usually tries to show what and how he is teaching.

I myself don't practice this way but follow Endō Seishiro shihan. There are no such "pauses". But like Christian Endō shihan also only teaches kata.
Quote:
... I move because I can.
It's the role of uke to show whether he is controlled or not. But this still happens within kata.
It's the task of tori to controll uke in a way he can't move by himself, but is moved by tori.

Quote:
Now that is an interesting role assignment for uke. Is that the sole role for uke in your Aikido? Does uke ever pressure tori so that tori can experience dealing with increasing amounts of force in order to develop a stronger center and a more coordinated mind/body?
Uke pressures tori /can pressure tori by modifying the strength of his attack.
If the attack is yokomen uchi,the attack is yokomen uchi, Nothing more, nothing less.

We have jiuy waza (defined attack, free waza) and randori (free attack, free waza). And we do a lot of free playing around with no fixed roles. But when practicing kata, we practice kata.

Could I clarify and answer your questions?
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Old 12-08-2016, 09:59 PM   #20
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
As far as I understand it, it is about learning the construction/architecture/structure of a certain technique.
There are different parts to be distinguished: The entry, the leading of uke, the throw, e.g. . The "pauses" mark (can mark) the transition from one part to the next.
Tey have a certain place, a certain way of contact ... to serve as tools to check one's way through the construction of a certain technique.
When I stille used to practice with Christian Tissier, he allways emphasized, that during embu he usually tries to show what and how he is teaching.
Ok, I get that. I'll do that myself on occasion when teaching beginners something they haven't seen before. Generally though, I want my students to experience technique as something that grows naturally out of the interaction between uke and nage; especially when the students are advanced. For that to happen I need them moving.

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
It's the role of uke to show whether he is controlled or not. But this still happens within kata.

It's the task of tori to controll uke in a way he can't move by himself, but is moved by tori.
The word control here gets a little sketchy. I'm assuming, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you're referring to physical control of uke by nage. Physically controlling uke is something I don't do. I look to control our interaction in such a way that uke is led along a path that will result in his balance being compromised to the point where he has no choice but to fall. Uke appears to have freedom of movement, but it's mostly an illusion. I control our common center and define the paths he can follow.

When I watch videos of Endo Shihan, especially the more recent ones (here and here for example) it's pretty apparent, to me anyway, that he's controlling the interaction and not the person.

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Uke pressures tori /can pressure tori by modifying the strength of his attack.
If the attack is yokomen uchi,the attack is yokomen uchi, Nothing more, nothing less.
That's one form of pressure, yes. What I was getting at was a form of dynamic pressure that exploits nage's vulnerability when he either fails to engage uke properly from the outset or allows uke to control the interaction by nage failing to control their common center as the interaction progresses. When dynamic pressure is a tool available to uke, nage must maintain mind/body coordination throughout in order to keep from getting "run over".

This can be very useful in kata training when practice of a technique by rote can lead nage's mind to wander and disrupt mind/body coordination.

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Could I clarify and answer your questions?
Thanks for the detailed reply. I like to get insight into how other practitioners approach their training. Most illuminating.

Ron

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Old 12-11-2016, 04:59 PM   #21
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

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Nicholas Eschenbruch wrote: View Post
Or, to frame it in a more productive way: why would anybody keep contact if they do not intend to follow up?
Another reason to keep contact is if you feel "under threat" by Tori. This is not necessarily to avoid an aggression, but if Uke feels that losing contact might reveal an opening, then staying in contact keeps them "in the loop".

Of course, "following up" is the ideal for the role, but if doing so would be suicide, or if breaking contact would also be suicide, this is when you see a pause in the movement. In other words, Uke is not the only one who is able to give pressure to the other, and it is a focus of Tissier's teaching to develop this sensation in both roles.

This is the trouble with Aikido videos in general. Just because a movement stops on camera, doesn't mean there isn't something going on at the point of contact.

The way I understand Tissier's kata is like this: Each is made up of a series of "points" where it is possible to either "destroy or forgive" Uke, and these points are where it is possible for Tori to "pause" the technique. It is then Tori's "choice to forgive" (ie; by moving in a way that offers a new opening) that allows the kata to progress. To show a flowing technique then, Tori moves slightly ahead of Uke just before reaching each "point".

So each kata then is a series of very short martial engagements that happen to move from one to another by the mercy of Tori.

As technical as this all sounds (and Tissier is nothing of not a technician) it's also rather integral to his interpretation of the philosophy of Aikido too: Uke expresses their capacity for aggression. Tori expresses their capacity for clemency. Both sides of humanity are expressed, but the violence of the situation is diffused.

But all this is just my own interpretation, and I'm not so experienced. So if I've got it all upside down, well, I spend half my time that way anyway.
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Old 12-12-2016, 02:01 PM   #22
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

Carsten, thanks for turning my grumpy comments into productive discourse :-)

Conan, yes, I sort of know that, but I must say precisely that understanding of "chess with people" is something I have found it difficult to be passionate about ever since my first course with a Tissier student 20 years ago. But I am sure it works for some, and certainly for Tissier himself. I doubt it is really useful unless, like him, one has a really thorough grounding in more confrontational arts. Just my 2 c.
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Old 12-20-2016, 07:32 AM   #23
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
... I want my students to experience technique as something that grows naturally out of the interaction between uke and nage ...
This is something we try to accomplish during jiyu waza or randori. Jiyu waza can actually feel a lot like playing around sometimes. It's meant to be spontanous, flowing naturally.
But when practicing kata - which we do most of the time - it feels more like creating the form from what circumstances ever. The more advanced the more tori will be able to bring a certain form to live not depending on ukes behaviour.
The form is preexisting, i.e. it exists Independent of the interaction between uke an nage. And so it can be created anyway.

Quote:
I'm assuming, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you're referring to physical control of uke by nage.
Yes, you got me right.

Quote:
... I control our common center ...
Neither Christian Tissier nor Endō sensei have the concept of creating a common center.

Quote:
When I watch videos of Endo Shihan, ... it's pretty apparent, to me anyway, that he's controlling the interaction and not the person.
Being able to controll the person is required for being able to controll the interaction.
So learning to controll the person of uke is the main part of senseis technical teaching. He even has developed a canon of certain exercises to teach exactly that.

Umh ... uke is not thrown by guiding him along a way that makes him eventually fall. But is made to collapse by breaking his ballance inside of his body.
Endō sensei calls it sometimes "emptying his ki" or "letting his mind go blank". Actually you disturb the structure of his body in a way that he can't reorganize himself.
Christian Tissier in former times called it to make oneself the center of uke.

Quote:
What I was getting at was a form of dynamic pressure that exploits nage's vulnerability when ...
If experienced enough we do show openings or failure to our partner by countering his technique.
But our practice is not about fightingh back and forth. It's more a spirit of "ikken hissatsu". So if uke is able to counter, he will not "attack further"and give more pressure or whatever, but will simply bring tori to the ground.
We called it a change of roles: uke is becoming tori then and now it's on him to finish with one "strike".
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Old 12-20-2016, 01:34 PM   #24
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

Excellent technique, great flow of movement, interesting to watch.
Thanks for the video.
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Old 12-20-2016, 01:37 PM   #25
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier Demonstration at 12th IAF Congress (2016)

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Neither Christian Tissier nor Endō sensei have the concept of creating a common center.
Perhaps he meant something like the Axis of Action?
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