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Old 11-20-2016, 03:22 PM   #51
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Aikido sparing

definition of sparring:

make the motions of boxing without landing heavy blows, as a form of training.
"one contestant broke his nose while sparring"
engage in argument, typically of a kind that is prolonged or repeated but not violent.
"mother and daughter spar regularly over drink, drugs, and career"
synonyms: quarrel, argue, fight, disagree, differ, be at odds, be at variance, fall out, dispute, squabble, wrangle, bandy words, cross swords, lock horns, be at loggerheads; More
(of a gamecock) fight with the feet or spurs.


Aikido in there anywhere...I think not.

Last edited by Mary Eastland : 11-20-2016 at 03:22 PM. Reason: italics

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Old 11-20-2016, 03:51 PM   #52
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
definition of sparring:
Why do not use Collins instead?

Quote:
Word forms: spars, sparring or sparred
(intransitive)
1. boxing, martial arts to fight using light blows, as in training
2. to dispute or argue
3. (of gamecocks) to fight with the feet or spurs
Bold mine.

Anyway, he is factually wrong and going into semantics is not going to make his statements less wrong.
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Old 11-20-2016, 07:44 PM   #53
rugwithlegs
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Re: Aikido sparing

Well, takemuso wiki is the spontaneous creation of technique. Then, we train usually with kata within a tight structure.

If we get away from the word "spar," another question would be how do we explore the creativity, and how do we get the natural freedom of movement? Short of life or death encounters? So, jiyuwaza or randori. I like a controlled practice of repeated kaeshiwaza which is not so different than a baguazhang or taijiquan exercise.
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Old 11-21-2016, 07:16 AM   #54
Tim Mailloux
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Yannis Mousoulis wrote: View Post
In no real Martial Art could ever be sparring or competition. The mentality and application of such a thing belongs to the sportsman, not the warrior...
You are so right, real warriors don't spar.

However You might want to fill in the US Army on that nugget of info because US Army Combative's School (aka hand to hand combat training) is based on the ground work of Brazilian Jujuitsu, the throws of Judo, the takedowns of western wrestling, & boxing and Maui Tai striking (basically your average MMA training) Oh ya, sparring and competition are also routine. If only these men and women defending and fighting for our nation only knew they were wasting their time.
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Old 11-21-2016, 07:17 AM   #55
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
If we get away from the word "spar," another question would be how do we explore the creativity, and how do we get the natural freedom of movement? Short of life or death encounters?
Without stepping outside of classical Aikido?

See for instance, Saito Morihiro's "Variety and sequence of training methods" in Traditional Aikido (Vol 5 - Training Works Wonders) pp 39-.40.
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Old 11-21-2016, 07:26 AM   #56
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Tim Mailloux wrote: View Post
You are so right, real warriors don't spar.

However You might want to fill in the US Army on that nugget of info
And USMC too, they should be told to stop doing this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=404rNzwT-G8

because that put them into the "not warrior" category by Mr Mousoulis standards of warriorness.
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Old 11-21-2016, 07:51 AM   #57
Tim Mailloux
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
And USMC too, they should be told to stop doing this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=404rNzwT-G8

because that put them into the "not warrior" category by Mr Mousoulis standards of warriorness.
And the Air Firce and Navy fighter pilots should stop dog fighting training (aka air to air sparring) and replace it with kata based training.
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Old 11-21-2016, 11:08 AM   #58
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Re: Aikido sparing

This old canard once again.

The various forms of sparing are training methods that allow you to move past the relatively static training to a more dynamic, pressurized environment. Jiyuwaza or randori Aikikai style is on the weaker end of this (I refer to pressure) but it is a form of sparring none the less. So is judo randori or any of the military examples in the previous posts. How much pressure you apply or how close you want to go to actual fighting is a debatable point but it is clearly incorrect to say there is no sparing or place for sparing in aikido.

You don't transition into the spontaneous generation of technique without a little forging (apologies to a related post).

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-21-2016, 11:59 AM   #59
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Re: Aikido sparing

I haven't posted here in ages, but it's an interesting and (depending on your perspective) important topic. I haven't formally practiced Aikido for the last ten years, but there have certainly been aspects of the training which stayed with me through the intervening time. For what it's worth, I had a nidan when I stepped away to investigate 'other options'.

Because of how training seems to often be organized, whether simply by presentation and orientation, or by some deeper structural imperative -- some kinds of testing appear to be difficult from within the orthodox Aikido apparatus. I think how that is best addressed must depend on individual circumstances, both personal preference and also character/personality of dojo. It's not clear to me that all which seems 'necessary' (for some versions of what a diligent exponent *might* wish in a personal art) is definitely available from 'within'. But neither is it obviously true that with the right motivation and cooperation of participants it absolutely could not be made so.

For myself, I had to step outside, but having done so I can see the manner in which far more than seems usually to be made available *could* be done in a way which would be consistent and respectful. However, I think getting those details right is probably very hard, and the end result would not suit many who are attracted to the form of Aikido which seems to exclude such attempts (obviously).

I don't mean to stand on the sidelines and snipe, and I realize this comment may not be very helpful. Still, I started in Aikido with a very 'sincere' attitude with respect to its apparent goals and methods. I'd like to think others who have done the same might accomplish them through a less circuitous route than the one I have followed. Not that I've 'accomplished' anything, but in the intervening years I have gained enough experience of alternatives to feel like I at least have a perspective on how the pieces fit together.

For what it's worth, while I wasn't posting on AikiWeb, I gained a lot of experience full-contact stick fighting with the Dog Brothers, had an amateur MMA match, and more recently received a black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Strangely, my main motivation for extending beyond formal Aikido was not so much wanting to 'fight' or 'test'. It was the desire to more fully explore the so-called 'internal strength' parameters which seemingly should define the form of an Aikido-like art. But that exploration necessarily led to interactions which deviated from the dictated track of dojo training in a way which produced pedagogical conflict.

In the end, I've been fortunate that another system (Gar-tak, a category of Ling Gésar practice) was able to provide an overarching umbrella for this somewhat disparate exploration in a way which nevertheless retained the ethical, philosophical, and psychophysical coherence that makes a system like Aikido attractive.

I have no special point other than to say that those who want to 'have it all' should think hard about how they personally would measure that. At some point, it's important to question which aspects of dogmatic praxis are definitely necessary for one's own goals, and which might conflict.

I really do hope those trying to come to grips with 'Aikido sparring' find solutions which work personally. I think that to the extent some form of grappling can be admitted to training -- either integrated formally or practiced respectfully and consistently 'on the side', that can only help.

The technical answers are out there, and one art/style/approach need not fear the other -- either from a tactical perspective or because of the threat of loss of identity. But the more those fears (if they exist) lead to isolation and justification, the more they become self-fulfilling prophecies. The early stages of 'testing' and experimentation were quite psychologically painful, largely because my worldview led me to believe my previous training 'should' have been more effective than it initially was.

In case it's unclear, my point is that I think it's a great idea for everyone to embrace the most rigorous degree of sparring the style they practice allows. And if even that is not enough for personal goals, consider expanding the scope of personal practice to find it. The less 'conflicted' one is about this need, the better, I think. Recognize that there is a continuum and it's possible to find one's place within it without having to demonize approaches which settle for a different place. Fluidity along that continuum (in both directions) is probably the best sign of 'healthy' martial arts training I can think of.

Just a few thoughts. Thank you for your attention.

Last edited by clwk : 11-21-2016 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 11-21-2016, 09:23 PM   #60
jurasketu
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Re: Aikido sparing

Sparring is no less of an illusion than training. You can "spar" anytime you want in Aikido.

All paths lead to death. I strongly recommend taking one of the scenic routes.
AWA - Nidan - Started Aikido training in 2008
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Old 11-22-2016, 02:33 AM   #61
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
1. It shouldn't matter. Moving with aiki transcends technique and your partner should feel that you move differently and that quality should produce some difficulty for your partner, even if not
accompanied with a knowledge of the art.
Yes, but the whole problem is that people can't move with "aiki" because they never reach that level. Most of them don't reach a level of proficiency using techniques let alone "aiki".

Quote:
2. Ever work with someone trying to get you to "do aikido"? It's ridiculous. In some respect, it's easier to play judo - "try to throw me without hitting or kicking me." Or spar, "try to punch me, or kick me. But, don't hit my crotch." But Aikido? "Okay, grab me to restrain me, but don't actually hit me. Wait, grab, but with the other foot forward. Okay, now don't move while I do my thing. But move your face because I can hit you here. No, you can't punch me yet. Okay, now keep grabbing even if it feels like you should let go..."
Kakari Geiko? It's not sparring but it is a means of overcoming the step by step learning curve which you have pointed out.
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Old 11-22-2016, 02:44 AM   #62
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Yannis Mousoulis wrote: View Post
A thread title with 45answers and yet, only one phrase come to my mind. There can never be "Aikido sparring" the very title of the thread is a contradiction in terms.
In no real Martial Art could ever be sparring or competition. The mentality and application of such a thing belongs to the sportsman, not the warrior...
I beg to differ.
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Old 11-22-2016, 06:40 AM   #63
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Kakari Geiko? It's not sparring but it is a means of overcoming the step by step learning curve which you have pointed out.
Kakari geiko is a good tool, but not the only needed.
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Old 11-22-2016, 06:45 AM   #64
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Chhi'mèd Künzang wrote: View Post
I haven't posted here in ages,
I missed you, not only because the content of your posts but because your writing skills.
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Old 11-22-2016, 09:59 AM   #65
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Re: Aikido sparing

I never said aikido was easy, and not everyone who practices can actually do aikido, let alone do it well. My first point was to illustrate that what we think we see is an aikido person doing someone else's art. What is actually happening is that an aikido person is not skilled enough to let aikido shine through scenarios that are not designed for aikido.

My second point was to illustrate that we (aikido people) often deliberately convolude a simple scenario, like sparring, to make it appear unattractive or even undesirable. Yet, we (aikido people) will go to great lengths to construct a scenario in which aikido can be effective. This is false at best.

The origin of the word, if memory serves, is to probe or prod. A spar is just a long wooden pole . A spur is a protrusion. The idea of sparring is to probe or agitate. Using the term in the context of fighting beyond this level is simply wrong. It's not the right word for referring to "fighting", if you are talking about fighting you are talking about a situation elevated above sparring.

I am going to refer to the video the feature Roy Dean because he has a good reputation and is an excellent martial artist by many accounts. In the video, there is never any implication that Mr. Dean is going to injure his opponent or escalate the scenario to a dangerous level. This example never even remotely comes close to being a fight and I will bet it was a fun experience to work with someone like that.

Everything about using aiki screams, "why would I touch this person?" When you work with someone with aiki, the very thought of running into that power is concerning and you are never just going to hit it and see what happens, at least without serious risk. Rather, you are exactly going to probe it until you find a way of dealing with it and if you ain't in... you ain't getting in. I think there is a stronger argument that most of aikido is exactly sparring - it's a way to preserve our safety when working with aiki.

Last edited by jonreading : 11-22-2016 at 10:02 AM.

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Old 11-22-2016, 12:32 PM   #66
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I missed you, not only because the content of your posts but because your writing skills.
Thanks, Demetrio. I appreciate that.
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Old 11-23-2016, 01:59 PM   #67
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Jiyuwaza or randori Aikikai style is on the weaker end of this (I refer to pressure) but it is a form of sparring none the less.
Except there is no Aikikai style, you have dojo's that are officially affiliated with the Aikikai and are, simply put, ridiculous with the way they train their practitioners in Aikido. Then again you have dojo's that are affiliated with the Aikikai and they have an almost military approach to Aikido. It also depends on the Shinhan's approach from country to country, because the needed criteria and, therefore knowledge, isn't the same for every country, although i don't understand why.

Quote:
You don't transition into the spontaneous generation of technique without a little forging (apologies to a related post).
I would say a lot of forging.
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Old 11-23-2016, 05:05 PM   #68
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
I never said aikido was easy, and not everyone who practices can actually do aikido, let alone do it well.
Nobody said Aikido itself was easy, one of the points of sparring is to test the level of comprehension that you have of you own art. The fact is that most people who train in martial arts are not of the highest level, some not even mediocre for that matter, but thanks to regular sparring they can achieve certain progress based on experience. Meaning they learn better from a first hand approach to undefined circumstances of a situation then by theoretical comprehension of that situation. Therefore they have the upper hand in and eventual feud simply because they achieved knowledge of certain patterns that work for them.

Quote:
My first point was to illustrate that what we think we see is an aikido person doing someone else's art. What is actually happening is that an aikido person is not skilled enough to let aikido shine through scenarios that are not designed for aikido.
Because they never trained outside of the basic model in which they were taught and therefore they never had the opportunity to let their art shine or for it to be darkened by their lack of martial integrity. Simply put, other then judging by their outer layer, or choreography, there is no way to differentiate between the good and bad Aikidokas. The worst thing about it is that the Aikidoka himself can't have insight into his level of understanding his art.

Quote:
My second point was to illustrate that we (aikido people) often deliberately convolude a simple scenario, like sparring, to make it appear unattractive or even undesirable. Yet, we (aikido people) will go to great lengths to construct a scenario in which aikido can be effective. This is false at best.
It depends on the Aikido people.

Quote:
I am going to refer to the video the feature Roy Dean because he has a good reputation and is an excellent martial artist by many accounts. In the video, there is never any implication that Mr. Dean is going to injure his opponent or escalate the scenario to a dangerous level. This example never even remotely comes close to being a fight and I will bet it was a fun experience to work with someone like that.
Because Dean has absolute control over his opponent, he doesn't need to escalate the situation. Also a fight doesn't have to escalate to a high level of intense violence for it to be a fight, especially if one of the participants has control over his opponent from the start.

Quote:
Everything about using aiki screams, "why would I touch this person?" When you work with someone with aiki, the very thought of running into that power is concerning and you are never just going to hit it and see what happens, at least without serious risk. Rather, you are exactly going to probe it until you find a way of dealing with it and if you ain't in... you ain't getting in. I think there is a stronger argument that most of aikido is exactly sparring - it's a way to preserve our safety when working with aiki.
How do you know if someone has Aiki? How do you learn to preserve you safety if you don't have Aiki? There is after all Uke and Tori (Nage). How does Uke learn to protect himself from Aiki if Tori (Nage) doesn't develop Aiki in the first place? The whole point is to achieve Aiki at some point but what in the meantime? How long does it effectively take to achieve Aiki and how many people are actually implementing training for such a purpose? If we are in fact training for the purpose of protecting ourselves from Aiki then sparring should be the least of out concerns and yet it proves to be our major fault because we can't use Aiki in sparring or even learn to recognize Aiki in others.

Last edited by MrIggy : 11-23-2016 at 05:07 PM.
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Old 11-24-2016, 03:51 AM   #69
ryback
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Re: Aikido sparing

What factual statements, are you out of your mind? You reduce a martial art into a sport based on some rules and you will destroy its very essence about real fighting and about forging oneself into a warrior. A sportsman is not a warrior, he can never be. Different mentality.
Have you ever heard of samurai getting into a ring? What is this nonsense? No wonder real martial arts are getting lost if everyone has shit for brains. Half of them sparring and the rest getting bored fat assed farts talking about harmony but practicing bullshit!
There can be no sparring for the warrior, only mortal combat, a duel to the death.
Sparring and fighting sports are just games for kids with big egos...
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Old 11-24-2016, 05:10 AM   #70
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Except there is no Aikikai style, you have dojo's that are officially affiliated with the Aikikai and are, simply put, ridiculous with the way they train their practitioners in Aikido. Then again you have dojo's that are affiliated with the Aikikai and they have an almost military approach to Aikido. It also depends on the Shinhan's approach from country to country, because the needed criteria and, therefore knowledge, isn't the same for every country, although i don't understand why.

I would say a lot of forging.
I was referring to different definitions of randori. What Judo/Shodokan aikido call randori is different than what is invariably called randori under the Aikikai umbrella. And yes most of us know all about the variation under that umbrella.

The point I was trying to make is that sparring is a very broad term and can be geared to different levels of intensity both with respect to pressure and a dynamic, chaotic environment. Some form of sparing is absolutely necessary to bring ones aikido to any number of stated goals whether that be the 'spontaneous generation of technique', developing the elusive aiki, or (with respect to the previous post) becoming a warrior. I know I should leave the last one alone but .....

We can discuss each of these in turn but generally speaking kata only training leaves us stuck in a restrictive action-reaction scenario - that eventually has to be broken out of.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-24-2016, 05:19 AM   #71
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Yannis Mousoulis wrote: View Post
What factual statements, are you out of your mind? You reduce a martial art into a sport based on some rules and you will destroy its very essence about real fighting and about forging oneself into a warrior. A sportsman is not a warrior, he can never be. Different mentality.
Have you ever heard of samurai getting into a ring? What is this nonsense? No wonder real martial arts are getting lost if everyone has shit for brains. Half of them sparring and the rest getting bored fat assed farts talking about harmony but practicing bullshit!
There can be no sparring for the warrior, only mortal combat, a duel to the death.
Sparring and fighting sports are just games for kids with big egos...
That really is funny.

Define warrior how you want (its a pretty loaded term) but all the ones I know (by my definition) train as close to the edge as possible without getting themselves killed or badly injured in the process. In other words they spar. They certainly don't deal only in mortal combat or a duel to the death - they just train really really hard.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-24-2016, 05:35 AM   #72
MRoh
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
What is actually happening is that an aikido person is not skilled enough to let aikido shine through scenarios that are not designed for aikido.
Usually when it comes to sparring, the time frame in which one could act in an aikido way is missed. There is no irimi entering, no kuzushi on contact, no atemi in the first moment.
Instead of this, people begin to fight, but in aikido there is no fighting. If it comes to the situation in which people grab each other like in Judo, everything they have learned in their aikido training is forgotten, dragging and pulling begins, and all the fluidity is gone. Every attempt to get the other person to move in a fluid way is bound to fail, because the counterparty will not participate in the movement voluntarily. Automatically the movement is done from the arms, and it very easy to stop a movement at once.

So if people want to learn to act in an aikido-way, the answer is not to train judo, but to train aikido behaviour in a consequent way.
If yo want to sparr, the difficulty lies in doing it in a friendly way, normally aikido as a fighting method works in a full contact way, so there is not much space for playing. Thinking should be about ending the fight in the first moment, not about beginning it.

People must learn that aikido has it's own set of trainingtools, and that this kind of training can't be mixed with Judo randori or sparring.
In aikido we train in this cooperative approach to make it possible to practice.
Of course if you want to learn judo, you can do so, if you want to learn boxing, you can do it as well.
To be skilled in this arts is definitively appropriate, because it is good to know how this people act, but to do what they do ist not aikido.
Of course it's possible to use aiki skills in Judo or boxing, but I think this is another question. There were people in judo with remarkable skills, but they called what they did judo, not aikido.
If one is able to let aiki shine through, it will not depend on the scenario, but before one has developed such high skills, he also has to learn a method and how to apply it consequently.

Last edited by MRoh : 11-24-2016 at 05:39 AM.
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Old 11-24-2016, 06:49 AM   #73
ryback
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
That really is funny.

Define warrior how you want (its a pretty loaded term) but all the ones I know (by my definition) train as close to the edge as possible without getting themselves killed or badly injured in the process. In other words they spar. They certainly don't deal only in mortal combat or a duel to the death - they just train really really hard.
I would say your posts are funny if they weren't a mere tragedy!
Training hard,very close to the edge, as realistically as you can get (you can never be 100% because in a real fight there is a number of x factors) is not sparring. We do that in our dojo but it's studying techniques through Kata training, no matter how fast and hard. It is NOT sparring!
Sparring is a form of competition, it has a referee of some sort and a set of rules and inside of those rules and according to them a "winner" is announced. It's a game, no matter how violent, nothing to do with real martial arts that can be non violent, yet pretty deadly. You can't play with that.
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Old 11-24-2016, 07:11 AM   #74
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
Usually when it comes to sparring, the time frame in which one could act in an aikido way is missed. There is no irimi entering, no kuzushi on contact, no atemi in the first moment..
My experience is a bit different, not trying to disagree with you, but I've felt these elements you mention, for instance, when blasting double leg takedowns. I believe a lot of Aikido people get lost in the external form of the various waza and become somewhat incapable of noticing these universal principles exist and are used in other arts techniques because they 'look' different.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 11-24-2016 at 07:17 AM.
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Old 11-24-2016, 07:57 AM   #75
MRoh
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Re: Aikido sparing

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I believe a lot of Aikido people get lost in the external form of the various waza and become somewhat incapable of noticing these universal principles exist and are used in other arts techniques because they 'look' different.
This is not contrary to what I said.
And we have al lot techniques in Aikido which are hardly ever in use, when people see them the first time, they are astonished.
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