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Old 04-11-2015, 05:15 PM   #1
JP3
 
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Your own concept of Tokui waza

What is your own idea of the Tokui waza (favorite technique or special technique, depending on who translates it) concept?

Back when I first started practicing aikido then playing judo, I found that I had certain actual, individual techniques that I always liked to work on, I was extremely good at them, and could work my partner/opponent into giving me those openings to execute that specific technique if they weren't actually trying to defeat that one thing.

Now that it's been more than 20 years I find that it isn't just those isolated techniques, but concepts, such as the "how" of a good wristlock that really intrigues me and I just love to work on those, talk about them, practice and teach them, etc.

What about yourself? If a beginner, go ahead and tell us what you like to do most and why? For you... mmm... more mature practitioners, what keeps your juices flowing when you step on the mat? I'm just curious to see what people are out there enjoying about their practice.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 04-16-2015, 03:03 PM   #2
nikyu62
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Re: Your own concept of Tokui waza

I am still learning and don't really have a favorite technique; I like all of them.
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Old 04-28-2015, 02:39 PM   #3
JP3
 
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Re: Your own concept of Tokui waza

Until that post, I had thought that I'd tossed this thread out into an empty barn, the sound of crickets was so loud.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 04-29-2015, 06:58 AM   #4
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Re: Your own concept of Tokui waza

Was trying to explain the concept just yesterday.

It really is not a matter of liking or not liking a technique but the technique you rely on. One discovers their tokui waza or more esoterically it discovers you. In a stressful environment (judo randori) all of a sudden you realize that this technique suits you in a variety of situations. The extra time and effort you put into training the tokui waza is to make a good thing better.

And as per gif - my Tokui was is ushiro-ate.

Last edited by PeterR : 04-29-2015 at 07:10 AM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 04-22-2016, 09:12 PM   #5
MrIggy
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Re: Your own concept of Tokui waza

Sumi O Toshi and Shiho Nage.
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Old 04-23-2016, 07:54 PM   #6
Susan Dalton
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Re: Your own concept of Tokui waza

I like iriminage omote and anything that finishes with the hip driving through into a tai sabaki.
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Old 04-28-2016, 11:36 AM   #7
rugwithlegs
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Re: Your own concept of Tokui waza

WhenI was training for fifth kyu, I had only one other beginner who started with me, he was 5'6", and I was 5'11". I didn't like koshinage or Shihonage, but I loved Iriminage. Then I went to another dojo and the one student was 6'8". My Iriminage suddenly sucked, but I could get under him.

As a one time corrections worker, I like that Irimi in general lets me initiate and start on my terms. Lately I am working on actually using my circles anyway.

I was not a Tomiki student but I like to explore the ideas. People were talking about how to use Aikido in a more martial setting. Several variations of the first five techniques of the Tomiki 17 just flow from one to another beautifully. In a martial setting, that is where I start.
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Old 04-28-2016, 11:28 PM   #8
Janet Rosen
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Re: Your own concept of Tokui waza

Being low to the ground and round, I tend to favor circular movement; being from Brooklyn the tendency was always to shorter and more direct versions of circular movement (as opposed to long leads and big swoopies); now being a senior with a bum knee, I tend to favor even shorter and more direct versions of circular movements.
What I mostly work on these days is the principle of proper structure at all times (succeed? nah. work on? heck yeah) and incorporating more internal movement and less external movement (again, leading to shorter and more direct).

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Old 04-29-2016, 03:33 PM   #9
JP3
 
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Re: Your own concept of Tokui waza

Janet's on my team. Well, not short and round, no offense intended, but I'm more like a tree trunk.

Not trying to insult those who actually "do" internal arts, about which I admit I don't have any formal clue but I find myself doing things now to my students without my feet moving. I mean, the rest of me is doing the "complete" technique, weight shifts, turns and redirections, I just don't do as much actual "step from here to there" as I used to. I catch myself up when I note the student across the room trying to emulate, and I have to remind myself to do it the big way in the teaching phase/role, so folks to don't confused. "Sensei didn't actually do it the way he told us to do it." Well, duh, but it can be a problem.

How about this idea... turn your big, swoopy circles into descending spirals which end at bad guy's/gal's center... neat-o stuff in there to have fun with. That's not actually a Howard-ism, but I totally stole the underlying concept from something he said at a clinic once, so he gets the citation.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 04-29-2016, 07:27 PM   #10
Janet Rosen
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Re: Your own concept of Tokui waza

Quote:
John Powell wrote: View Post
Janet's on my team. Well, not short and round, no offense intended, but I'm more like a tree trunk.

Not trying to insult those who actually "do" internal arts, about which I admit I don't have any formal clue but I find myself doing things now to my students without my feet moving. I mean, the rest of me is doing the "complete" technique, weight shifts, turns and redirections, I just don't do as much actual "step from here to there" as I used to. I catch myself up when I note the student across the room trying to emulate, and I have to remind myself to do it the big way in the teaching phase/role, so folks to don't confused. "Sensei didn't actually do it the way he told us to do it." Well, duh, but it can be a problem.

How about this idea... turn your big, swoopy circles into descending spirals which end at bad guy's/gal's center... neat-o stuff in there to have fun with. That's not actually a Howard-ism, but I totally stole the underlying concept from something he said at a clinic once, so he gets the citation.
Trust me, if Howard has said it, I have Paid Attention do we want them to end at partner's center? not where we want partner's center to go? hmmmm.....Now you have given me something to ponder until I am cleared for partner practice again......Thank you!

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 04-30-2016, 01:46 PM   #11
JP3
 
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Re: Your own concept of Tokui waza

Janet, you caught it exactly. NOT where we want their center "to go" but spiraling in and ON their center. Play with it. I think you'll find some neat-O toys in that thought, as uke's posture ends up being destroyed usually quicker than by the leading them out, or moving them around, etc. I like it when I can place a hand and immediately feel the uke's posture beginning to crumble.

And the other thing, it's not painful to uke. Very difficult to deal with from uke's perspective, but it's not a pain-compliance thing at all.

Howard got me to thinking about this by saying his thing about the "ball in the gut" thing he uses to explain his Daito-ryu principles, which are different in expression, if not result, from the Tomiki stuff I do - the thing about one side moving out towards uke while the other side moves back in, yin-yang etc.

I stuck that with something my original instructor, Ray, always was saying about the arms being "gratuitous attachments to the center and irrelevant to the actual action of the body/center," with spiral motions which came (to me, anyway) from Hapkido (and you can look up where they got it from), and my own insight about postural destruction centered generally around spine locks and specifically around the l5-S1 joint at the top of the pelvic girdle's shelf.

Without going into a dissertation (probably too late), I've noticed that many folks seem to look at the body as either a solid thing which can perambulate on stilts, or a fluid thing which can go any which way all the time, and IMO both of these are a bit off. To me, the opponent is a ball (the center of mass) which has two independent flat shelves from the ends of which protrude levers with which I can manipulate that center's motion. Most high-level folks get this. The thing that I think most people miss is that the center is never actually in the body's center (well, I supposed squatting positions, such as Jigotai defensive posture from Judo move the CG down into a more geometric position, but I'm not worried about that guy. Defensive judo is just that, defensive and it's not a threat to me. That guy stands up still attached to me, THEN he's a threat, but enough on that).

People standing up, either square, or in a more combat ready position (one side slightly leading, whether your art favors straight-on or side-turned, whatever), if you can get that big ball in the middle to roll enough to tilt the bottom shelf (i.e. flexion of the L5-S1 joint) and they suddenly lost most of their stability and strength.

I'm going off track so let me yank myself back on topic.... witht he above very brief description of the body-concept in mind try this very basic drill. It's partner training, so steer clear until you are cleared but this isn't in any dynamic or slam-bang, it's just the opposite... exploratory. Once you get it, you can start using it at the instant of contact with the opponent, it's very neat.

Same-side grab, their hand comes down to grasp your wrist, your hand is palm up to receive the grab. Allow the grab to get secure before you begin, and uke should not (at this stage, remember we are exploring) try to drop a lot of energy into you (lots of you guys call that side nage, I call it tori - whichever, it's the person executing the attempted learning of the drill), just grasp with a firm grip, not crushing, so both of you can feel what happens internally next.
Everyone has this releasing activity, and lots of people call it different things... I'm only using this one as it is very common. I've found that the action works with any combination I've ever tried, though some or more complex to "find & feel" than others. This one seems easiest for me to explain.

From the starting position, tori's hand extended at hand-shaking height with uke's hand grasping (same side or mirror side, depending on what you call it), try to just lift your wrist. Since you are going directly into uke's weight/force/energy, it'll be hard, perhaps almost impossible if there's a size differential. This is "Learning Point One."

Learning Point Two is simply moving the push-pressure you are exerting, no longer into the vector of uke's force, but tangentially to it - which should be familiar to everyone. In the beginning, this is a big motion, and should look quite familiar to everyone on here with more than a month's experience.

Learning Point Three is to simply turn the tangential vector of your push-pressure (keep in mind we're talking about 3 dimensions here, and this gets into the discussions about spheres and such) around in a 90 degree arc -- this is actually the beginning of the spiral effect, but in the beginning couple-few times you should expect it to be a bit jerky. It's a learned motor skill.

What you are targeting is probably something most folks have done, without realizing that it can be done in almost any wrist release (or elbow, arm, lapel or shoulder grab for that matter), when the uke grabs, and tori appears to simply rais their hand and put it on the other person's chest (of course the motion is actually more subtle and complex than that), which causes uke's arm structure to collapse into their shoulder girdle, which twists the spine up, Wallah! L5-S1 flexion and all sort of badness can happen to uke if they don't act to correct the posture.

The "spiral" that I'm trying to describe is the push-pressure direction of tori's hand as it initially begins a trajectory tangential to uke's sphere (defined by his grab) then turns - and continues to turn as the push-pressure moves IN towards uke's center. Try it and let me know if you can't find it.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 04-30-2016, 04:13 PM   #12
Janet Rosen
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Re: Your own concept of Tokui waza

Quote:
John Powell wrote: View Post
Janet, you caught it exactly. NOT where we want their center "to go" but spiraling in and ON their center. Play with it. I think you'll find some neat-O toys in that thought, as uke's posture ends up being destroyed usually quicker than by the leading them out, or moving them around, etc. I like it when I can place a hand and immediately feel the uke's posture beginning to crumble.

And the other thing, it's not painful to uke. Very difficult to deal with from uke's perspective, but it's not a pain-compliance thing at all.

Howard got me to thinking about this by saying his thing about the "ball in the gut" thing he uses to explain his Daito-ryu principles, which are different in expression, if not result, from the Tomiki stuff I do - the thing about one side moving out towards uke while the other side moves back in, yin-yang etc.

I stuck that with something my original instructor, Ray, always was saying about the arms being "gratuitous attachments to the center and irrelevant to the actual action of the body/center," with spiral motions which came (to me, anyway) from Hapkido (and you can look up where they got it from), and my own insight about postural destruction centered generally around spine locks and specifically around the l5-S1 joint at the top of the pelvic girdle's shelf.

Without going into a dissertation (probably too late), I've noticed that many folks seem to look at the body as either a solid thing which can perambulate on stilts, or a fluid thing which can go any which way all the time, and IMO both of these are a bit off. To me, the opponent is a ball (the center of mass) which has two independent flat shelves from the ends of which protrude levers with which I can manipulate that center's motion. Most high-level folks get this. The thing that I think most people miss is that the center is never actually in the body's center (well, I supposed squatting positions, such as Jigotai defensive posture from Judo move the CG down into a more geometric position, but I'm not worried about that guy. Defensive judo is just that, defensive and it's not a threat to me. That guy stands up still attached to me, THEN he's a threat, but enough on that).

People standing up, either square, or in a more combat ready position (one side slightly leading, whether your art favors straight-on or side-turned, whatever), if you can get that big ball in the middle to roll enough to tilt the bottom shelf (i.e. flexion of the L5-S1 joint) and they suddenly lost most of their stability and strength.

I'm going off track so let me yank myself back on topic.... witht he above very brief description of the body-concept in mind try this very basic drill. It's partner training, so steer clear until you are cleared but this isn't in any dynamic or slam-bang, it's just the opposite... exploratory. Once you get it, you can start using it at the instant of contact with the opponent, it's very neat.
I/we play with this a lot. It also is how Ikeda Sensei talks about "moving your insides." Many people have been playing in the same field for some time now, only getting better about describing it.
I use the Low Impact Aikido classes I lead as a sort of lab for my slow experiments with this

Janet Rosen
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Old 05-06-2016, 06:54 AM   #13
Howard Popkin
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Re: Your own concept of Tokui waza

Thanks for the citation, just transmitting old material from what I learned from others.

I credit Daitoryu and other masters of old. I'm just trying to continue on the path and enjoy myself with some awesome Budo people, like you two

As for their center...I go around it, under, over....but never hit it straight on...

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Old 05-06-2016, 07:23 PM   #14
Janet Rosen
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Re: Your own concept of Tokui waza

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post

As for their center...I go around it, under, over....but never hit it straight on...
Thank you....I just figure straight on at the center is the kind of "argument" we talk about not having in aikido

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Old 05-11-2016, 08:28 PM   #15
JP3
 
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Re: Your own concept of Tokui waza

I often try to hit their center, but with the planet, not me, personally. Gravity is a good dude to have on your side in a fight.
And... my thought above was a bit imprecise in explanation, sorry about that. As with most things, it's much easier to explain it in person, hands-on, than via interweb chat room, eh!

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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