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Old 03-13-2016, 12:23 PM   #476
Star Dragon
Dojo: Yamashina dojo, Kyoto and others
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

A BJJ fighter typically comes shooting in with a tackle. Here is some useful general advice on how to deal with this kind of attack:

http://www.pfctraining.com/pfc-train...14-newsletter/

The article emphasizes four key elements:
  1. Get your hips in (but using Aikido, where we don't set force against force, you might want to get off-line on an angle; anyway, never step back in a straight line!).
  2. Create a barrier with your forearm (hello, irimi-nage).
  3. Control the opponent's head and drive it off-line, up or down (irimi-nage again).
  4. Create an angle (Aikido is good at that).

So, different versions of irimi-nage would seem to be useful, especially "short" ones (like the direct one that Steven Seagal shows in many of his movies). Depending on the circumstances, Kaiten-nage and Ikkyo could be appropriate too.
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Old 03-13-2016, 02:49 PM   #477
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

You can see what the article is describing in this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2TFw7rXM3E and I would say the attackers are playing the role of "angry dude who has never trained takedowns"
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Old 03-15-2016, 07:55 PM   #478
MrIggy
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Regarding the importance of "mucle memory", for instance, last friday I pulled this kneebar rolling with another blue belt (and Judo blackblelt), however, I've never been formally taugth it, never drilled it, I've seen it on video some time ago and it happened. I was simply going with the flow.
I did the same thing with the basic tripod sweep, saw it on youtube and did it in sparring. But the point is that my body was in that position a couple of times earlier and i just didn't know what to do. When i saw the video i thought to myself "I could try and do this.". The next time my body was again in the same position and this time i knew what to do and i did it. I had to at least see the video and be exposed to the technique like you in order for it to come to my mind.

Quote:
So I don't deny the value of drilling and repetition, but in my experience, that is not what JJ, or Aikido, is about. I agree more with what Mr. Hillson has wrote: relaxation as power, a handful of relationships, ying/yang exploration...
I also agree with what he wrote but the fact is, without the correct muscle memory and repetition you simply can't advance in certain areas of your art. Your moves have to become automatic because only then can you achieve the true flow and you body can get familiar with all the aspects. Then you can perceive the true meaning of relaxation.

It's not just grappling arts that are like that, many boxers and kick boxers had flow in their movement. Look at Muhammad Ali, Floyd Mayweather, Roy Jones Jr. etc. and they where all "labeled" gym rats. For Ali it was said that he knew all the tricks in boxing.

Off course i forgot to mention that it also depends on what you wan't from your training.

Last edited by MrIggy : 03-15-2016 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 03-15-2016, 08:01 PM   #479
MrIggy
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
The more experience you have, the less specific techniques matter. The idea that a single technique could "neutralize" a BJJ attacker, or any other competent martial artist, is ridiculous anyway.
It depends on the situation. Many MMA matches have been decided on one technique, be it a punch, kick or throw.

Quote:
Rather, you learn to structure your body in a way that makes techniques available to you, and less available to the attacker.
And that is also a reflex just with the whole body which off course needs a lot of practice to achieve such a state.
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Old 03-16-2016, 07:39 AM   #480
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
I did the same thing with the basic tripod sweep, saw it on youtube and did it in sparring. But the point is that my body was in that position a couple of times earlier and i just didn't know what to do. When i saw the video i thought to myself "I could try and do this.". The next time my body was again in the same position and this time i knew what to do and i did it. I had to at least see the video and be exposed to the technique like you in order for it to come to my mind.
See, no "muscle memory" needed. No need to endless kata repetition until the specific movement is ingrained.Mirror neurons working plus aliveness training leads to "Takemusu Jits".

Quote:
I also agree with what he wrote but the fact is, without the correct muscle memory and repetition you simply can't advance in certain areas of your art. Your moves have to become automatic because only then can you achieve the true flow and you body can get familiar with all the aspects. Then you can perceive the true meaning of relaxation.
Well, let's agree to disagree for concepts like "muscle memory", "true flow" or "true meaning of relaxation" mean different things to us both, or so it seems.

Quote:
Off course i forgot to mention that it also depends on what you want from your training.
In my case, JJ is a mere "technology of the self" in a, more or less, Foucaltian sense. I'm not really on tackling random aikido people in the streets.
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Old 03-16-2016, 05:24 PM   #481
kewms
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
It depends on the situation. Many MMA matches have been decided on one technique, be it a punch, kick or throw.
Sure. When you're preparing for a competition, you spend hours identifying your opponent's weaknesses and deciding how to exploit them. Same with judo. Same with chess, for that matter.

Which just shows how different competition is from any kind of real situation. Planning for a known opponent is very different from dealing with a random attacker who happens to train in a given art.

And if you spend three rounds trying to get an opening for that one deciding technique, can you really be said to have "neutralized" your attacker?

(I know, I know, Ronda Rousey armbar specials. But even those don't work on everyone.)

Katherine

Last edited by kewms : 03-16-2016 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 03-16-2016, 05:25 PM   #482
kewms
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
And that is also a reflex just with the whole body which off course needs a lot of practice to achieve such a state.
"Reflex" has a very specific medical definition. This isn't it.

Katherine
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Old 03-16-2016, 07:27 PM   #483
MrIggy
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
See, no "muscle memory" needed. No need to endless kata repetition until the specific movement is ingrained.Mirror neurons working plus aliveness training leads to "Takemusu Jits".
The muscle memory was in my body position, the sweep worked mostly because i was lucky that my partner didn't expect it and again i had to at least see the sweep for it to work. It wasn't an act of pure flow. As for the mirror neurons theory i do know certain aspects can be developed through "action understanding" because i have actually seen people do it, in my case certain techniques they only saw once, the problem is that the effect doesn't last long without repetition and experience because they tend to loose the initial concentration and understanding of how they actually.

Quote:
Well, let's agree to disagree for concepts like "muscle memory", "true flow" or "true meaning of relaxation" mean different things to us both, or so it seems.
Yes, i also think we can agree to disagree.
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Old 03-16-2016, 08:02 PM   #484
MrIggy
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Sure. When you're preparing for a competition, you spend hours identifying your opponent's weaknesses and deciding how to exploit them. Same with judo. Same with chess, for that matter.
Yes, and they also know their strengths and still surprises happen. For instance Mirko Filipović, boxer and kick boxer, got knocked out by his opponent with a high kick to the head in the first round, which is actually his on specialty. His opponent was a pure grappler.

Quote:
And if you spend three rounds trying to get an opening for that one deciding technique, can you really be said to have "neutralized" your attacker?
That depends on circumstances. If your life is in jeopardy and you survive but the attacker runs away can you say that you neutralized him or simply neutralized the attack?
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