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Old 02-05-2016, 02:20 AM   #451
kewms
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
It's a known fact that all combat sport athletes train and spar with heavier members so they could get in better overall condition (technical and physical). especially for competition purposes.
Who do the heavyweights train with, then? It's impossible to train with bigger people if you are the biggest person in your dojo.

Katherine
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Old 02-05-2016, 05:23 AM   #452
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Who do the heavyweights train with, then? It's impossible to train with bigger people if you are the biggest person in your dojo.

Katherine
Short answer - travel to other dojos (yeah I know same problem).

Training a weight-up is very useful but you take what you can get - crucial is that you spar regularly with people near the weight you will compete in. Very little benefit to either if there is too much of a difference and if your goal is competition.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-05-2016, 12:38 PM   #453
Greg Jennings
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Look, I've been playing BJJ for a while. Long enough to tell you that even to an experienced BJJ player, the whole concept of "a technique to neutralize a bjj attacker" is silly in a number of contexts.

In the context of the current thread...

An experienced bjj player or one experienced in any art where there is sparring, say Judo, isn't interested in techniques. They are interested in a game plan, chains, transitions, etc. They know that they aren't likely to get the first attempt, or the second. What they want to do is keep the initiative and keep throwing mud against the wall. Sooner or later something will stick.

Which brings me back to my major assertion...people that hope to use their art in sport or self defense need to train against progressive resistance.

Last edited by Greg Jennings : 02-05-2016 at 12:40 PM. Reason: clarity

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Old 02-18-2016, 09:45 AM   #454
MrIggy
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Greg Jennings wrote: View Post
You missed the point. We practice, with partners, all the techniques of the aikido curricula. There are no techniques that we do only solo kata and "call it good".
I didn't say you didn't practice the techniques. My post was pointed out to one of the general faults in Aikido training. As you pointed out:

Quote:
"If "the rules" or culture didn't allow the partners latitude to use appropriate techniques from the curricula. Like if the school teaches eye gouges, but can't practice them.
One of the common faults would be the misuse of strikes (atemi) in Aikido training. Hardly any clubs/dojos teach the proper use of strikes in their training and to what purpose do certain strikes serve. Some strikes serve to create space for a technique, if the practitioner doesn't know this then he can't perform it correctly and tends to muscle out a move and that's when joints get distorted. In those situations heed better have a spectacular Uke who can react to his "technique" or better start to learn how to perform all of the aspects properly.

Quote:
My example was of no technique to address a situation. Like full mount. That is, the art doesn't address it at all. Like no newaza in Aikido. That's fine as long as the student knows that and doesn't go forth thinking "that will never happen". For example, my primary aim in Aikido was never self defense.
I understand but also just because the student practices a technique, movement, strategy or whatever doesn't mean he will be successful. It depends on the student and circumstances but as you said it's better then for him going around thinking that it will never happen. What was your primary aim for training in Aikido?

Quote:
Getting right to the point, I'm talking about schools where they never practice with resistance. Him being done unto just goes with it. Again, that's fine as long as him doing unto doesn't have unrealistic expectations.
The problem is that it almost always does.

Quote:
As far as people taking shots to the head without it degrading their performance, they just haven't been hit hard enough yet. As force scales up, it will eventually degrade their performance.
I can agree that eventually it will.

Quote:
There, we can just agree to disagree. It is wonderful to train to avoid situations. But, that might not be everyone's goal. Some train for personal improvement, some train for competition, some train for self defense, some train just because it's fun. Many train for all.
It doesn't have to be a definite goal. You can just add it to the training of any of those particular groups. Just an aspect like any other.

Quote:
*ALL*? Please back up that assertion.
Check out the training of professional athletes, for instance boxers who went up in the weight rank, mma fighters who changed weight ranks from lower to heavier ranks, kick boxers especially Thai kick boxers who fought out of Thailand with heavier opponents. Amateur athletes, Olympians, like wrestlers, boxers, Judo guys, Taekwondo guys. I have a met a certain number of those type of athletes and all of them had training with heavier opponents. It mostly helps them to develop strength and endurance also a sense of caution, especially for the strikers, because they know that their opponent has more power in their strike, be it punching or kicking. And when i say heavier opponents i don't necessarily mean the "David and Goliath" situation because that can be counter productive.
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Old 02-22-2016, 07:54 AM   #455
Greg Jennings
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

My main aim in aikido training was Budo, not self defense. The self defense was tertiary. My BJJ training today isn't primarily about self defense. Still tertiary.

I was talking about large size/weight differences. I roll a lot with a guy over 300 who's pretty athletic. As of this morning, I'm 201.6. I'm also, at 53, over 10 years older than the guy. It makes a huge difference. HUGE. Pardon the pun.

Greg Jennings
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Old 02-22-2016, 08:08 AM   #456
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

One more post here, then I'm going to leave it alone.

I went back and re-read this thread from the beginning to re-take in the evolution of our perception of BJJ. It is interesting to note that at the beginning of this thread, way back when, BJJ was, largely, BJJ. Today, I can tell you that it is a different animal. It is now a fusion of BJJ, Judo, Sambo, wrestling and more. It's a living, breathing, constantly morphing, thing.

Greg Jennings
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Old 02-22-2016, 10:38 PM   #457
Jisen Aiki
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I'm just wondering where my post went
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Old 02-26-2016, 12:03 PM   #458
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Greg Jennings wrote: View Post
My main aim in aikido training was Budo, not self defense. The self defense was tertiary. My BJJ training today isn't primarily about self defense. Still tertiary.
Well, one aspect of Budo is self defense. I guess it's up to the practitioner to chose what will his main goal be.

Quote:
I was talking about large size/weight differences. I roll a lot with a guy over 300 who's pretty athletic. As of this morning, I'm 201.6. I'm also, at 53, over 10 years older than the guy. It makes a huge difference. HUGE. Pardon the pun.
Didn't get it. As for the actual difference i am sure it is huge, how tall is the guy?
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Old 02-26-2016, 12:42 PM   #459
MrIggy
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Greg Jennings wrote: View Post
It is now a fusion of BJJ, Judo, Sambo, wrestling and more.
It's always been a fusion of Judo, Sambo, wrestling and what-not. Judo is a fusion of jujutsu techniques, wrestling and Sumo techniques. It's only normal for BJJ practitioners to add elements from other arts. The Gracie family members where taught Judo and many of them had black belts in Judo, Sambo and other martial arts. From what i recall Rickson Gracie has black belts, besides BJJ, in Judo, Sambo, Aikido and also has trained in various styles of wrestling. Let's not forget about people like Osvaldo Alves who openly states how much Judo has helped broaden his knowledge of BJJ.

http://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighter...-facts-and-bio

That's why Aikido people should practice and spar much more diligently, they could learn a lot more and achieve faster progress. that would help them get a better understanding of movements, techniques and the rest.
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Old 03-06-2016, 10:15 PM   #460
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
It's always been a fusion of Judo, Sambo, wrestling and what-not. Judo is a fusion of jujutsu techniques, wrestling and Sumo techniques. It's only normal for BJJ practitioners to add elements from other arts. The Gracie family members where taught Judo and many of them had black belts in Judo, Sambo and other martial arts. From what i recall Rickson Gracie has black belts, besides BJJ, in Judo, Sambo, Aikido and also has trained in various styles of wrestling. Let's not forget about people like Osvaldo Alves who openly states how much Judo has helped broaden his knowledge of BJJ.

http://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighter...-facts-and-bio

That's why Aikido people should practice and spar much more diligently, they could learn a lot more and achieve faster progress. that would help them get a better understanding of movements, techniques and the rest.
Osvaldo Alves was Sergio Penhas instructor in Judo before Sergio's transition to BJJ.

Tomiki Aikido is one of the Aikido style that do sparring.

Rickson Gracie quoted: "If size matters, then the elephant will be the king of the jungle". He proved he's right by fighting some of the best fighters out there and submitting them in BJJ.

To the OP: Train in BJJ also so that you'll know what to do when challenged by a BJJ practitioner. Most of the BJJ Universities or Academies don't allow rudeness or egoistic practitioners. They kick-out airheads and bully people instantly off the mats and out of the Academy when they see one. Believe me as I've seen a lot of them.

In Aikido we train mostly in pre-set techniques and you know what's coming up at you. Like all muscle memory? In real fights the uke will not leave his hands in front of you after he threw a punch. You won't see those shomenuchi and yokomenuchi just like what you do in the dojo. You will also see a different types of katadori and katatedori from a trained martial artist of different styles.

In BJJ we train and roll on the mats as if we are playing chess. We have to solve the puzzles and we have to be at least one move ahead of the opponents. It's not muscle memory and it's not pre-sets, but solving problems or formula.

Please give BJJ a try as most BJJ places offers free classes and they always have an extra clean gi that you can wear for the trial class. I will give you a very serious precautions before tryng a class or two. "Once you trained BJJ and rolled on the mats you'll never be back" .

"For The Secret That The Warrior Seeks: You Must Know That The Basic Principles Lie In The Study Of The Spirit." - Morihei Ueshiba
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Old 03-07-2016, 09:13 AM   #461
Greg Jennings
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
It's always been a fusion of Judo, Sambo, wrestling and what-not. Judo is a fusion of jujutsu techniques, wrestling and Sumo techniques. It's only normal for BJJ practitioners to add elements from other arts. The Gracie family members where taught Judo and many of them had black belts in Judo, Sambo and other martial arts. From what i recall Rickson Gracie has black belts, besides BJJ, in Judo, Sambo, Aikido and also has trained in various styles of wrestling. Let's not forget about people like Osvaldo Alves who openly states how much Judo has helped broaden his knowledge of BJJ.

http://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighter...-facts-and-bio

That's why Aikido people should practice and spar much more diligently, they could learn a lot more and achieve faster progress. that would help them get a better understanding of movements, techniques and the rest.
My point here is that it's not a static art. It's constantly evolving. Sometimes it evolves in a circle, but it is always evolving. Very few people are attempting to preserve someone else's take on the art.

As an aside...
Due to my schedule (not my preference), I primarily hit no-gi classes. I don't think that we've done a main stream BJJ technique in a couple of weeks. Everything has been takedowns from mainstream wrestling. Of course, that's just the convenient source of those techniques...they are probably almost as old as humans walking upright...there are only so many ways to wrestle.

Greg Jennings
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Old 03-08-2016, 08:51 PM   #462
Ketsan
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
Brazillian Jujitsu is quite dangerous a martial art as it's practitioners are not afraid to close the distance, which means that they are capable and willing to take one of two blows to grapple with so for any non-grappler you have only one chance, at best to end the fight before it goes to ground.

However, BJJ has two glaring weaknesses, first, closing. It is not easy to close with a very good striker, especially out in the street where there are obstacles and bystanders who could interfere in a shoot to the legs and space to move. Secondly, focusing too much on ground fighting leaves them pretty much stuck to one on one fights for obvious reasons.

For an aikidoka, the best chance to take a grappler is in the opening moments of the fight. Before the fight even registers in the combatant's minds, so techniques could be awareness of surroundings and atemi, to get the drop on a grappler and take the initiative.

In a fight, the best move would be kaiten nage. This is due to the fact that a grappler only has two opening moves available to him, for all the ground fighting moves he has. He can either do takedown on the legs, or clinch and throw, both of which involves him making the first move. For leg takedowns, controlling the head and isolating the arm should put you into position or kaiten nage. Otherwise, irimi techniques would also work if the BJJ guy goes for a standing clinch instead.

The best technique therefore would be Kaiten Nage as it allows for quick establishment of control and opportunities for strikes to the neck, back of head and collar bone. On that note, if you are able to catch the tackle, you could jam your elbow into his collarbone as he goes for the double legs, dealing pain before controlling his head.

However, this requires split-second timing and if you go to the ground, you lose.
There are no techniques in Aikido. Aikido is the technique.
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Old 03-10-2016, 11:24 AM   #463
MrIggy
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Rod Lansangan wrote: View Post
Osvaldo Alves was Sergio Penhas instructor in Judo before Sergio's transition to BJJ.
On the site it says that Penha trained in Judo and BJJ simultaneously, which actually confirms my previous post that BJJ is a Judo, Sambo, wrestling and what-not.

Quote:
Tomiki Aikido is one of the Aikido style that do sparring.
Yes, i know that. Unfortunately many techniques these days are not allowed in competitions.

Quote:
Rickson Gracie quoted: "If size matters, then the elephant will be the king of the jungle". He proved he's right by fighting some of the best fighters out there and submitting them in BJJ.
Rickson fought only one guy that can considered a "good" fighter, that was Masakatsu Funaki, under special rules.

Quote:
To the OP: Train in BJJ also so that you'll know what to do when challenged by a BJJ practitioner. Most of the BJJ Universities or Academies don't allow rudeness or egoistic practitioners. They kick-out airheads and bully people instantly off the mats and out of the Academy when they see one. Believe me as I've seen a lot of them.
I agree, cross training is a good idea, that's how arts good developed in the first place.

Quote:
In Aikido we train mostly in pre-set techniques and you know what's coming up at you. Like all muscle memory? In real fights the uke will not leave his hands in front of you after he threw a punch. You won't see those shomenuchi and yokomenuchi just like what you do in the dojo. You will also see a different types of katadori and katatedori from a trained martial artist of different styles.
On higher levels of Aikido training, 3 kyu and higher, hands aren't supposed to be left out either. The intensity of training should be gradually increased.

Quote:
In BJJ we train and roll on the mats as if we are playing chess. We have to solve the puzzles and we have to be at least one move ahead of the opponents. It's not muscle memory and it's not pre-sets, but solving problems or formula.
Yes it is, everything is muscle memory or in other words a reflex. That's the whole point for the repetition of techniques, positions, transitions, strategies etc.
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Old 03-10-2016, 11:40 AM   #464
MrIggy
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Greg Jennings wrote: View Post
My point here is that it's not a static art. It's constantly evolving. Sometimes it evolves in a circle, but it is always evolving. Very few people are attempting to preserve someone else's take on the art.
The evolution of BJJ is debatable, especially in recent years, but honestly i don't fell like debating about it, to much time would be involved. There will always be the mainstream lines, adding bits and pieces doesn't change the fundamental idea of an art. Changing the philosophy does that. Like the difference in certain Karate or kick boxing styles.

Quote:
Due to my schedule (not my preference), I primarily hit no-gi classes. I don't think that we've done a main stream BJJ technique in a couple of weeks. Everything has been takedowns from mainstream wrestling. Of course, that's just the convenient source of those techniques...they are probably almost as old as humans walking upright...there are only so many ways to wrestle.
Those are probably the same techniques done the same way as before some 2000 or 3000 years, judging by murals in Egypt.
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Old 03-10-2016, 03:39 PM   #465
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Yes it is, everything is muscle memory or in other words a reflex. That's the whole point for the repetition of techniques, positions, transitions, strategies etc.
No, it is not.

Do you even roll?
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Old 03-11-2016, 01:43 AM   #466
MrIggy
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
No, it is not.

Do you even roll?
How do you think your body develops the moves you learn in practice? It memorises them and enhances the memory every time you learn a new move, transition or whatever. When you make a mistake in practice, be it getting caught in an armbar, your body also remembers that is not a safe position to be in and next time you avoid that position. Why do you think people need experience? Because with experience they enhance their overall reflex memory and can adjust more easily to unexpected positions because the probability is that they have already been in that or similar positions.
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Old 03-11-2016, 06:38 AM   #467
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Jiu Jitsu is not about accumulation and memorization (which happens in the brain, not in the muscles) of techniques/positions/moves, et c.and then recognizing and appliying them when rolling.
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Old 03-11-2016, 09:06 AM   #468
MrIggy
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Jiu Jitsu is not about accumulation and memorization (which happens in the brain, not in the muscles) of techniques/positions/moves, et c.and then recognizing and appliying them when rolling.
Nobody said it happens "in the muscles" rather the muscles are the stimulus for the accumulations of memory. The reason it's called muscle memory is because, based on the muscles that we use to create the memory, is how the information will be stored in the brain as memory.

What would be your explanation for BJJ?

Last edited by MrIggy : 03-11-2016 at 09:12 AM.
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Old 03-12-2016, 09:11 AM   #469
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
What would be your explanation for BJJ?
Is a combination of body alignment, weight distribuition, feeling the flow, balance, OODA loop management... skills. Techniques are how these skills manifest.
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Old 03-12-2016, 11:55 AM   #470
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Is a combination of body alignment, weight distribuition, feeling the flow, balance, OODA loop management... skills. Techniques are how these skills manifest.
And all those skills come through experience which of course includes "muscle memory" which is the main stimulus for their development.
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Old 03-12-2016, 12:16 PM   #471
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Whatever

It seems to me you've never had direct experience in this field, but I could be wrong. So, again: Do you even roll? How much jits have you done?
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Old 03-13-2016, 06:48 AM   #472
MrIggy
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Whatever

It seems to me you've never had direct experience in this field, but I could be wrong. So, again: Do you even roll? How much jits have you done?
Not much, i didn't have the time unfortunately, sparring with a couple of friends to see how things go on the ground. From what i have encountered it all comes down to experience, which off course includes muscle memory as the main stimulus for their development. How much experience do you have?
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Old 03-13-2016, 08:32 AM   #473
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

My own experience was with a Judo Shodan who joined our Aikido school.

What I liked with ground work:
1. If I was in a position where I could relax, and my partner couldn't, I was going to win. We say it all the time in Aikido, but the feeling was so obvious when I could just relax on top and take a rest while my partner got exhausted. Relaxation as power, who knew?
2. Millions of techniques, but only a handful of relationships.
3. One technique becomes impossible, another becomes easy. Twisting up and down, straightening or entering, working the periphery, working the core. The main Judo basics seemed so logical, and a great yin/yang exploration.
4. I was always told with randori to just take what technique is offered rather than what I wanted. As I got more calm and more relaxed and Uke struggled, I could take a nice long time to see what just developed. Instead of a split second to perceive what was offered, I could take a minute to really work in this mindset.

The mental skills just seemed so much the same, physically it was more demanding. The approach to the techniques had me learn to codify what I was doing in Aikido and explore variations. I also learned to let my brain explore Aikido laying down instead of insisting Aikido was only sitting.
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Old 03-13-2016, 11:19 AM   #474
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
How much experience do you have?
In and out for the last ten years, with some Judo in the middle. I'm the eternal blue belt.

Regarding the importance of "mucle memory", for instance, last friday I pulled this kneebar rolling with another blue belt (and Judo blackblelt), however, I've never been formally taugth it, never drilled it, I've seen it on video some time ago and it happened. I was simply going with the flow.

So I don't deny the value of drilling and repetition, but in my experience, that is not what JJ, or Aikido, is about. I agree more with what Mr. Hillson has wrote: relaxation as power, a handful of relationships, ying/yang exploration...
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Old 03-13-2016, 11:33 AM   #475
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

The more experience you have, the less specific techniques matter. The idea that a single technique could "neutralize" a BJJ attacker, or any other competent martial artist, is ridiculous anyway.

I wouldn't say that has much to do with "muscle memory" or "reflex" though. It isn't that you can perform a technique "by reflex." Rather, you learn to structure your body in a way that makes techniques available to you, and less available to the attacker.

At the very highest levels, this is O Sensei's attackers feeling "frozen" in place, and unable to move at all.

Katherine
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