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Old 01-31-2015, 10:57 AM   #426
earnest aikidoka
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Brazillian Jujitsu is quite dangerous a martial art as it's practitioners are not afraid to close the distance, which means that they are capable and willing to take one of two blows to grapple with so for any non-grappler you have only one chance, at best to end the fight before it goes to ground.

However, BJJ has two glaring weaknesses, first, closing. It is not easy to close with a very good striker, especially out in the street where there are obstacles and bystanders who could interfere in a shoot to the legs and space to move. Secondly, focusing too much on ground fighting leaves them pretty much stuck to one on one fights for obvious reasons.

For an aikidoka, the best chance to take a grappler is in the opening moments of the fight. Before the fight even registers in the combatant's minds, so techniques could be awareness of surroundings and atemi, to get the drop on a grappler and take the initiative.

In a fight, the best move would be kaiten nage. This is due to the fact that a grappler only has two opening moves available to him, for all the ground fighting moves he has. He can either do takedown on the legs, or clinch and throw, both of which involves him making the first move. For leg takedowns, controlling the head and isolating the arm should put you into position or kaiten nage. Otherwise, irimi techniques would also work if the BJJ guy goes for a standing clinch instead.

The best technique therefore would be Kaiten Nage as it allows for quick establishment of control and opportunities for strikes to the neck, back of head and collar bone. On that note, if you are able to catch the tackle, you could jam your elbow into his collarbone as he goes for the double legs, dealing pain before controlling his head.

However, this requires split-second timing and if you go to the ground, you lose.
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Old 01-31-2015, 01:59 PM   #427
Jonathan
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

You need what you need for any fight with any martial artist: to be able to debilitate your opponent with one blow and to be impossible to take off your feet. Specific techniques are secondary to these skills.

Regards,
Jon.

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
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Old 01-18-2016, 12:47 PM   #428
MrIggy
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

That depends on what his attack would be. If it would be a double or single leg takedown, because that is the easiest and fastest way for him to take you down, just go to your knees and and then either move outwards or just attack his head with punches and elbows or even a choke if you can get a hold of his neck (Gi or noGi or whatever). Even if he immediately gets you to the ground don't let him get on top of you, always get out of the line of attack be it standing or on the ground meaning move sideways or try to get immediately on your knees.

Look at how Kazushi Sakuraba (Gracie Hunter) reacted to the leg attacks of the Gracies, he always tried to maintain a good posture and he never went into a grappling game with them, he played his game not theirs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxnL3TFVXp0

You can even see the usefulness that Suwari Waza or Shikko movement have in that situation, although Sakuraba doesn't do Aikido , in the way he keeps his balance while on the knees. I actually couldn't get into seiza because the stiffness in my knees but after Shikko movement and Suwari Waza it wasn't a problem anymore.

If he tries to clinch for a Judo type throw all you have to do is keep your hips low and push his hips away. Also knees to the groin in that situation will keep him away. Even in the MMA world guys can't take groin attacks easily or not at all, especially if they come in multiples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Byy0oSL53CU
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Old 01-25-2016, 04:50 PM   #429
MrIggy
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

It mostly depends on the technique that the BJJ-er would use to attack you. BJJ is basically Judo with wrestling moves that Judo rules don't allow. If it was a double leg takedown the best response would be to simply go on your knees and attack him with punches, try to get back up and in the process use knees or a kick. If he tries to get you in a clinch you have to move sideways so he can't trip you with attacks such as De Ashi Barai, Kosoto Gake, Osoto Gari, or Kouchi Gari or hip throws like Harai Goshi, Uchi Mata, Hane O Goshi or O Goshi. In both cases you have keep you hips low and move sideways (zig zag) to his "blind spot" of flank. Basically you wan't keep him from getting a firm grip and attaining a solid support for his throw meaning you can't let him disrupt your balance.

If if he manages to get you to the ground you have to try to move out the way of his attack, you can't let him get on top of you. Constantly try to get back on your knees no matter how he tries to get you to the ground and try to get a technique in work or get away as much as you can from him. A good example of this fighting strategy would be the legendary Kazushi Sakuraba aka The Gracie Hunter who defeated 4 members of the Gracie family:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxnL3TFVXp0

Off course Sakuraba is a more well rounded fighter but his main strength was to nullify other fighters strength.
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Old 01-26-2016, 12:46 PM   #430
Greg Jennings
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I wonder how many of the folks giving opinions have trained in both arts?

Greg Jennings
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Old 01-26-2016, 01:24 PM   #431
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote: View Post
I wonder how many of the folks giving opinions have trained in both arts?
It's also depends under whom they have trained.
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Old 01-26-2016, 02:16 PM   #432
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

*It
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Old 01-27-2016, 08:17 AM   #433
Greg Jennings
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
It also depends under whom they have trained.
Agreed.

My idea is that training, in the dimension that I'm discussing, should have three levels: Paired kata at one end, a minimal-rules-set sparring at the other, and an intermediate-resistance "active kata" and "active free roll" (free to think about and experiment with escapes, reversals, variations) in the middle.

When I was teaching aikido, I didn't think that sparring in that context was ideal. I was working toward a more free form of randori, but I was transferred to another location and no longer trained in aikido.

When teaching, what I was able to push, and did so aggressively, was that intermediate stage. I called it "active uke". Some people caught on quickly, some did not. That's the way of things. It takes time to establish a culture.

I don't agree with everything in this: http://www.straightblastgym.com/aliveness101.html , but I think that it is very worthwhile reading. YMMV.

FWIW.

Last edited by Greg Jennings : 01-27-2016 at 08:18 AM. Reason: spelling correction

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Old 01-28-2016, 10:40 PM   #434
MrIggy
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote: View Post
Agreed.

My idea is that training, in the dimension that I'm discussing, should have three levels: Paired kata at one end, a minimal-rules-set sparring at the other, and an intermediate-resistance "active kata" and "active free roll" (free to think about and experiment with escapes, reversals, variations) in the middle.
I like this idea. Especially the active kata/active free roll part. That would help Uke think "out of the box" in unexpected situations. Which is what some people, who have newer actually had a fight in their life, really need.

Quote:
I don't agree with everything in this: http://www.straightblastgym.com/aliveness101.html , but I think that it is very worthwhile reading. YMMV.
FWIW.
I read it all. I understand the overall idea but as you said i don't agree with some notions, in fact there are some things that i didn't even understand in that text.
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Old 01-31-2016, 01:37 PM   #435
Jisen Aiki
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Wink Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Are you kidding~ What techniques neutralize BJJ? It will take everything you got, kitchen sink included.

You're asking to thwart the attack of FIGHTERS. Fighters who _INVENT_ new ways killing each other every day. BJJ fighters vet new attack methodology (seems) all the time. They use a high level of corporation in the ACADEMY(Read Dojo) meanwhile they attack with precise killing and disabling technology.
That's cool though you can just neutralize a living breathing culture of attack fighters..Cheers
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Old 01-31-2016, 08:57 PM   #436
MrIggy
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Matthew Vanderlip wrote: View Post
Are you kidding~ What techniques neutralize BJJ? It will take everything you got, kitchen sink included.

You're asking to thwart the attack of FIGHTERS. Fighters who _INVENT_ new ways killing each other every day. BJJ fighters vet new attack methodology (seems) all the time. They use a high level of corporation in the ACADEMY(Read Dojo) meanwhile they attack with precise killing and disabling technology.
That's cool though you can just neutralize a living breathing culture of attack fighters..Cheers
Nice trolling dude.
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Old 02-01-2016, 01:33 PM   #437
Greg Jennings
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
I read it all. I understand the overall idea but as you said i don't agree with some notions, in fact there are some things that i didn't even understand in that text.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliveness_(martial_arts)

Greg Jennings
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Old 02-01-2016, 02:03 PM   #438
MrIggy
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

That's actually what i understood but honestly i don't see the difference between sparring and "aliveness". Is there any real difference?
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Old 02-01-2016, 03:14 PM   #439
rugwithlegs
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I don't feel any need to run out to challenge a BJJ guy, nor has one challenged me.

Maybe a better question is does our Ukemi, suwari waza, hanmi handachi, seiza and Osei waza constitute a ground game?

I don't know what I would do - but my best poor imitation of BJJ would be a bad idea. Don't play a ground game with people with a good ground game.
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Old 02-01-2016, 03:22 PM   #440
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Matthew Vanderlip wrote: View Post
You're asking to thwart the attack of FIGHTERS. Fighters who _INVENT_ new ways killing each other every day. BJJ fighters vet new attack methodology (seems) all the time. They use a high level of corporation in the ACADEMY(Read Dojo) meanwhile they attack with precise killing and disabling technology.
We eat babies too.
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Old 02-01-2016, 03:57 PM   #441
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
That's actually what i understood but honestly i don't see the difference between sparring and "aliveness". Is there any real difference?
None - its jargon nothing more.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-01-2016, 04:39 PM   #442
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
That's actually what i understood but honestly i don't see the difference between sparring and "aliveness". Is there any real difference?
Sparring is alive, but drilling can be done with aliveness too.
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Old 02-02-2016, 09:18 AM   #443
Greg Jennings
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Sparring is alive, but drilling can be done with aliveness too.
Similarly, sparring could be not alive.

Greg Jennings
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Old 02-02-2016, 09:22 AM   #444
Greg Jennings
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
I don't feel any need to run out to challenge a BJJ guy, nor has one challenged me.

Maybe a better question is does our Ukemi, suwari waza, hanmi handachi, seiza and Osei waza constitute a ground game?

I don't know what I would do - but my best poor imitation of BJJ would be a bad idea. Don't play a ground game with people with a good ground game.
Suwari waza is helpful in a small number of circumstances, but it is just a small niche.

The bottom line is that if you want to be able to cope in a given situation, you have to have meaningful practice in that situation. Don't overthink. Apply the Willie Sutton principle.

In the context of a ground game, you need to look to arts that play there. The newaza of Judo, BJJ, Sambo, Catch Wrestling, etc.

Last edited by Greg Jennings : 02-02-2016 at 09:32 AM. Reason: completeness

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Old 02-02-2016, 09:57 AM   #445
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Greg Jennings wrote: View Post
Similarly, sparring could be not alive.
I don't get you.
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Old 02-02-2016, 11:35 AM   #446
Greg Jennings
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I don't get you.
Example 1: If "the rules" or culture didn't allow the partners latitude to use appropriate techniques from the curricula. Like if the school teaches eye gouges, but can't practice them. (I know that that's a weird example, but it fits).

Example 2: If the school's curricula didn't teach appropriate techniques for a situation. The sparring then teaches the students inappropriate skills. Like if the school has no escape techniques from full mount.

Example 3: There is sparring, but the resistance isn't progressive. So, the students end up thinking that they can execute techniques that they can't against determined resistance. Or, maybe they end up thinking that they can take shots to the face without their performance being degraded.

Corollary 3.1: The sparring is only against people of similar size/strength. Like only doing full mount escapes against people your own size. Go try it against someone 50 pounds heavier.

Greg Jennings
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Old 02-02-2016, 02:37 PM   #447
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Good examples, now I understand what you mean.

BTW

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Corollary 3.1: The sparring is only against people of similar size/strength. Like only doing full mount escapes against people your own size. Go try it against someone 50 pounds heavier.
As a 50 years old, 155 lbs guy I know that feeling.
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Old 02-03-2016, 01:13 PM   #448
Greg Jennings
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
As a 50 years old, 155 lbs guy I know that feeling.
53/210 here. Still, when the guy is pushing 300, just surviving when they "superman" is a chore.

Greg Jennings
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Old 02-03-2016, 07:18 PM   #449
MrIggy
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Greg Jennings wrote: View Post
Example 1: If "the rules" or culture didn't allow the partners latitude to use appropriate techniques from the curricula. Like if the school teaches eye gouges, but can't practice them. (I know that that's a weird example, but it fits).
This is one of the faults in general Aikido training. Of course unless you have a spectacular Uke who can endure the whole Ukemi process and let you unleash the technique to it's fullest intent. This way the Tori doesn't understand why certain techniques are done in a certain way and towards what point should they progress.

Quote:
Example 2: If the school's curricula didn't teach appropriate techniques for a situation. The sparring then teaches the students inappropriate skills. Like if the school has no escape techniques from full mount.
This depends also on the student at hand. Not everybody reacts to a situation in the same manner and to the same efficiency. Off course one must learn techniques and moves for certain situations but that doesn't guarantee success.

Quote:
Example 3: There is sparring, but the resistance isn't progressive. So, the students end up thinking that they can execute techniques that they can't against determined resistance. Or, maybe they end up thinking that they can take shots to the face without their performance being degraded.
Again, one of the faults in general Aikido training, from my experience it depends heavily on the context in which someone conducts their training. Some people can take shots to the head without it bothering their performance, the simple answer is adrenalin. But the whole point in training should be to avoid unnecessary situation where someone could afflict damage and you could have avoided that situation in the first place.

Quote:
Corollary 3.1: The sparring is only against people of similar size/strength. Like only doing full mount escapes against people your own size. Go try it against someone 50 pounds heavier.
I honestly didn't think this would be an issue. It's a known fact that all combat sport athletes train and spar with heavier members so they could get in better overall condition (technical and physical). especially for competition purposes.
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Old 02-04-2016, 01:11 PM   #450
Greg Jennings
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
This is one of the faults in general Aikido training. Of course unless you have a spectacular Uke who can endure the whole Ukemi process and let you unleash the technique to it's fullest intent. This way the Tori doesn't understand why certain techniques are done in a certain way and towards what point should they progress.
You missed the point. We practice, with partners, all the techniques of the aikido curricula. There are no techniques that we do only solo kata and "call it good".

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Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
This depends also on the student at hand. Not everybody reacts to a situation in the same manner and to the same efficiency. Off course one must learn techniques and moves for certain situations but that doesn't guarantee success.
My example was of no technique to address a situation. Like full mount. That is, the art doesn't address it at all. Like no newaza in Aikido. That's fine as long as the student knows that and doesn't go forth thinking "that will never happen". For example, my primary aim in Aikido was never self defense.

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Again, one of the faults in general Aikido training, from my experience it depends heavily on the context in which someone conducts their training. Some people can take shots to the head without it bothering their performance, the simple answer is adrenalin.
Getting right to the point, I'm talking about schools where they never practice with resistance. Him being done unto just goes with it. Again, that's fine as long as him doing unto doesn't have unrealistic expectations.

As far as people taking shots to the head without it degrading their performance, they just haven't been hit hard enough yet. As force scales up, it will eventually degrade their performance.

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
But the whole point in training should be to avoid unnecessary situation where someone could afflict damage and you could have avoided that situation in the first place.
There, we can just agree to disagree. It is wonderful to train to avoid situations. But, that might not be everyone's goal. Some train for personal improvement, some train for competition, some train for self defense, some train just because it's fun. Many train for all.

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
I honestly didn't think this would be an issue. It's a known fact that all combat sport athletes train and spar with heavier members so they could get in better overall condition (technical and physical). especially for competition purposes.
*ALL*? Please back up that assertion.

Greg Jennings
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